| Páginas no tópico: < [1 2 3] > | Possessives for names ending in S Tópico cartaz: Paul Dixon
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Lingua 5B 
Bósnia-Herzegóvina
Local time: 20:32
Membro (2009)
inglês para croata
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| Specific, not generic | Apr 5, 2009 |
This is one of those grammar fields where you have to address each case specifically, as there isn't a generic rule. Or learn them by heart, for each case that you may encounter.
Tim Drayton wrote:
This reminds of a question I have always wanted to ask.
What if we want to write "board of directors resolution"?
"Board of directors' resolution" seems wrong to me, because although "directors" is plural, we are talking about the "board of directors", which is singular.
On the other hand, "board of director's resolution" appears plain daft because we are turning "directors" into a singlar noun, which it patently obviously is not.
Any thoughts?
Hi Tim,
The conclusion I drew out of your presented examples is that when you have a singular phrase or a phrase that is grammatically in plural but semantically in singular, and if it premodifies a noun , it will function as a genitive in its Nominative form.
" UPS Services " = UPS is Nominative functioning as Genitive ; however, important to note this is strictly when it is a pre-modificator of a noun. UPS premodifies Services
board of directors premodifies " resolution"
However, these examples are not good, as that wasn't the question the topic starter wanted to address.
He wanted to discuss s' vs ' and 's cases.
There is a set of rules for this area that I can't remember now ( probably can be googled ).
I also feel there is a relation between the functionality, that is whether it truly functions as " possession" or just as premodification ( must be detected by a refine semantic analysis ).
| | | | | Think of a way around it? | Apr 5, 2009 |
Tim Drayton wrote:
This reminds of a question I have always wanted to ask.
What if we want to write "board of directors resolution"?
"Board of directors' resolution" seems wrong to me, because although "directors" is plural, we are talking about the "board of directors", which is singular.
On the other hand, "board of director's resolution" appears plain daft because we are turning "directors" into a singlar noun, which it patently obviously is not.
Any thoughts?
Hello Tim
I agree. IMO it even sounds a bit awkward ... You could try 'a board resolution', 'the board's resolution' perhaps ...
Lesley
[Edited at 2009-04-06 00:33 GMT]
| | | | Jocelyne S
França
Local time: 20:32
francês para inglês
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| Chigaco Style Guide | Apr 6, 2009 |
My Chicago Manual of Style does not entirely explain why, but states that one should:
"1) Form the possessive of a proper name in the singular by adding an apostrophe and s:
Examples: Jones's book, Marx's ideology, Stevens's poems, Kinross's farm
But see the exceptions noted below.
2) The possessive of the names Jesus and Moses is traditionally formed by adding an apostrophe alone:
Examples: in Jesus' name, Moses' leadership
Names ... See more My Chicago Manual of Style does not entirely explain why, but states that one should:
"1) Form the possessive of a proper name in the singular by adding an apostrophe and s:
Examples: Jones's book, Marx's ideology, Stevens's poems, Kinross's farm
But see the exceptions noted below.
2) The possessive of the names Jesus and Moses is traditionally formed by adding an apostrophe alone:
Examples: in Jesus' name, Moses' leadership
Names of more than one syllable with an unaccented ending pronounced "eez" are also exceptions based on euphony. Many Greek and hellenized names fit this pattern:
Examples: Aristophanes' plays, Xerxes' victories, Charles Yerkes' ideas
3) For some common nouns as well, euphony dictates adding only an apostrophe:
Examples: for conscience' sake, for appearance' sake, for righteousness' sake
4) Form the possessive of a plural proper name (the Bradleys, the Costellos, etc.) by adding an apostrophe to the accepted plural:
Example: the Bradleys' house, the Rodriguezes' mine, the Costellos' ranch."
There does not seem to be any reference to company names, as far as I can see.
Best,
Jocelyne ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dylan Edwards
Reino Unido
Local time: 19:32
grego para inglês
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[quote]Paul Dixon wrote:
I would like to know if there is a general rule for using apostrophe-S possessives for names ending in S, particularly names of companies: for example, would we say "UPS's services" or "UPS' services"?
Going right back to your initial question, here's an example of "UPS Services" without an apostrophe:
Any information received from the UPS Licensed Materials, the UPS Systems or the UPS Services is "Confidential Information". End-User shall (a) hold in ...
http://www.harveysoft.com/agreements/upsagreement.htm
This is a specific term which is probably defined in the contract.
In other contexts, when you are not using it in this specific sense, it's certainly possible - and preferable - to say "UPS's services".
"UPS' services" doesn't look very natural. The apostrophe looks over-fussy and doesn't serve any useful purpose.
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Dylan Edwards
Reino Unido
Local time: 19:32
grego para inglês
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| Perhaps this applies especially to acronyms... | Apr 6, 2009 |
Concentrating on "UPS" again (because otherwise one could range far and wide with this topic), I've tried to think of other examples of acronyms ending in S.
"M&S" (for "Marks & Spencer") comes to mind. You can find many examples of "M&S's", and this is what I would expect, because it's a natural way of forming a possessive. There is nothing incorrect about it. It's all a matter of context.
In official names of parts of M&S's operations, you will find the noun-form "M&S... See more Concentrating on "UPS" again (because otherwise one could range far and wide with this topic), I've tried to think of other examples of acronyms ending in S.
"M&S" (for "Marks & Spencer") comes to mind. You can find many examples of "M&S's", and this is what I would expect, because it's a natural way of forming a possessive. There is nothing incorrect about it. It's all a matter of context.
In official names of parts of M&S's operations, you will find the noun-form "M&S" used attributively, without an apostrophe: "M&S Financial Services". This is correct in official titles. An apostrophe would look wrong. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nicole Schnell
Estados Unidos
Local time: 11:32
inglês para alemão
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In memoriam | Excellent topic, BTW | Apr 6, 2009 |
Please let me know if I am straying off-topic:
How do you deal with company names that are plural by nature? Example: "XYZ Technologies", "XYZ Enterprises". I am in permanent war with editors who insist that such company names are used as singular (please note that I am translating into German). Still, will you refer to this company's services as "its services" or "their services"?
| | | | Paul Dixon
Brasil
Local time: 15:32
português para inglês
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CRIADOR(A) DO TÓPICO
The dilemma has come up again:
Petrobras' operations or Petrobras's operations?
Petrobras is the Brazilian counterpart of BP. The name simply means Brazilian Petroleum Ltd.
| | | | Rodion Shein
Federação Russa
Local time: 21:32
inglês para russo
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The correct form is Petrobras's.
The first "s" is a part of the stem, i.e. it is not the plural form. Neither is it an exclusion (like words that end in 'eez', etc.). Therefore, the correct way to form the possessive case is using "apostrophe + s".
[Edited at 2010-09-03 20:18 GMT]
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Oliver Walter
Reino Unido
Local time: 19:32
alemão para inglês
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Nicole Schnell wrote:
How do you deal with company names that are plural by nature? Example: "XYZ Technologies", "XYZ Enterprises". I am in permanent war with editors who insist that such company names are used as singular (please note that I am translating into German). Still, will you refer to this company's services as "its services" or "their services"?
The name may appear to be plural but it is the name of a company. Therefore, after mentioning "XYZ Technologies", I would write "its services". Similarly, "XYZ Technologies has decided to ...", not "have decided".
Oliver
| | | | Neil Coffey
Reino Unido
Local time: 19:32
francês para inglês
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| No style guide author is on a direct line with god... | Sep 4, 2010 |
Rodion Shein wrote:
The correct form is Petrobras's.
The first "s" is a part of the stem, i.e. it is not the plural form. Neither is it an exclusion (like words that end in 'eez', etc.). Therefore, the correct way to form the possessive case is using "apostrophe + s".
Some authors have advocated this. But nobody will arrest you or subject you to eternal flagelation if you decide to disregard their opinion because you think the form "Petrobras's" looks stupid...
| | | | Neil Coffey
Reino Unido
Local time: 19:32
francês para inglês
+ ...
| It's common to use company names with a plural verb | Sep 4, 2010 |
Oliver Walter wrote:
The name may appear to be plural but it is the name of a company. Therefore, after mentioning "XYZ Technologies", I would write "its services". Similarly, "XYZ Technologies has decided to ...", not "have decided".
Except that in practice, people often use company names with a plural verb. And if you really want to argue about it in terms of some kind of "logic" (bearing in mind that the form of "logic" that you choose may not respect that which underlies the way language actually works), then you could argue that a "company" represents several people... Swings, roundabouts and all that...
| | | | Rodion Shein
Federação Russa
Local time: 21:32
inglês para russo
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| Linguistically Speaking... | Sep 4, 2010 |
Neil Coffey wrote:
...nobody will arrest you or subject you to eternal flagelation if you decide to disregard their opinion because you think the form "Petrobras's" looks stupid...
Eternal flagellation is really a harsh sentence for just a linguistic opinion
As a native speaker, you are sure to know much better what form is more appropriate in English.
Still, if we consider linguistics to be a science, the position that something "looks stupid" is not quite scientific  , is it?
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Neil Coffey
Reino Unido
Local time: 19:32
francês para inglês
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| The "science" of orthography... | Sep 4, 2010 |
Rodion Shein wrote: As a native speaker, you are sure to know much better what form is more appropriate in English. Still, if we consider linguistics to be a science, the position that something "looks stupid" is not quite scientific , is it?
To be honest, I think it's hard to say why one use of the appostrophe is more "appropriate" than another in cases like this. Unlike, say, the spelling of the word "boy" or the decision to put a full stop at the end of a sentence-- which are fairly universally agreed upon and so there's an argument that people are used to seeing them and following these conventions makes it much easier for people to read your text-- there are cases, such as some uses of the apostrophe, where there's really little universal consensus, and the decision does come down to choosing a solution that you prefer.
Actually, aesthetics probably does play an important role-- it's probably harder for people on the whole to read things that have combinations of letters/symbols that they're not used to seeing. And you *could* probably devise a scientific study to investigate to what extent this was true to help you decide between two particular forms. But in reality, it's not practical to carry out an investigation to decide how to write every word you put down on the page, and so you do have to fall back on gut instincts to some extent.
Incidentally, most of the orthographic conventions that we have come to adopt probably aren't based on anything terribly "scientific" if it comes down to it.
| | | | Oliver Walter
Reino Unido
Local time: 19:32
alemão para inglês
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| It's common but it ain't right | Sep 4, 2010 |
Neil Coffey wrote: Oliver Walter wrote:
The name may appear to be plural but it is the name of a company. Therefore, after mentioning "XYZ Technologies", I would write "its services". Similarly, "XYZ Technologies has decided to ...", not "have decided".
Except that in practice, people often use company names with a plural verb.
Yes, it is common to use company names with a plural verb: it is common for English speakers to make linguistic mistakes, and a translator's duty is to avoid them.
From New Scientist 23 Feb 2008 (my underlinings): examples of correct use: "The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute has an expanding scientific programme..."; "Syntaxin Ltd is a rapidly evolving biotechnology company..."; example of incorrect use: "Jeyes are an internationally recognised market leader." [page 98].
"XYZ Technologies" is a single legal and business entity so, as far as I'm concerned it supplies services, and they are its services.
Oliver
| | | | Rodion Shein
Federação Russa
Local time: 21:32
inglês para russo
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Neil Coffey wrote:
...But in reality, it's not practical to carry out an investigation to decide how to write every word you put down on the page, and so you do have to fall back on gut instincts to some extent.
I appreciate your position, Neil.
However, I share Oliver's one that it is a translator's duty to avoid mistakes. Sometimes I really have to carry out investigations to find a better word in my native language.
Now I have to apologize for this off topic and thank you for this discussion.
Rodion
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