| Páginas no tópico: < [1 2] | Being bilingual/trilingual and writing skills Tópico cartaz: Mario Chavez (X)
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Tom in London
Reino Unido
Local time: 02:40
Membro (2008)
italiano para inglês
Mario Chavez wrote:
As a practicing translator, working with texts for editing, translating, rewriting or assessment purposes has always been the bread and butter of the translator. In other words, these activities involve writing in one way or another, and has little if anything to do with bilingualism or trilingualism (speaking two or more languages).
What are your thoughts? That being bilingual automatically implies writing skills? Or should we be explicit and speak of writing skills when we refer to translation and similar tasks?
Thank you.
I have the advantage of also being an academic, a published author, and a journalist, with a love for the skilful use of language that comes naturally to many Irish people like myself.
This has enabled me to enjoy the task of writing well and effectively IMHO (though perhaps not on internet forums).
But I wouldn't say that everyone who's bilingual is literate, either in their native language or their second language.
I suspect that many bilingual people have just enough skill in both languages to enable them to get through the day and deal with everyday matters, but not much more.
For translators with well-developed writing skills in their target language, it becomes possible to handle texts that might bewilder others.
[Edited at 2017-07-03 11:05 GMT]
| | | | | My experience... | Jul 3, 2017 |
Tom in London wrote:
I suspect that many bilingual people have just enough skill in both languages to enable them to get through the day and deal with everyday matters, but not much more.
I've come across many bilingual people in my life and not a single one - although fluent in the spoken language - could write well in both languages... they always had a stronger dominant language... of course, this is only my experience... 
| | | | Lingua 5B 
Bósnia-Herzegóvina
Local time: 03:40
Membro (2009)
inglês para croata
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| Also a certain dose of talent should be present. | Jul 3, 2017 |
IMO a bilingual person who is a great writer would be an equally great writer if they were monolingual. It's not necessarily a skill related to bilingualism. Not all bilingual people are talented for writing.
[Edited at 2017-07-03 11:58 GMT]
| | | | Mario Chavez (X)
Local time: 21:40
inglês para espanhol
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CRIADOR(A) DO TÓPICO | More on bilingualism | Jul 3, 2017 |
I'm still seeing more anecdotal evidence and personal experience on being bilingual and having writing skills. If anyone knows of an article or book regarding the matter, kindly let me know.
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Mario Chavez (X)
Local time: 21:40
inglês para espanhol
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CRIADOR(A) DO TÓPICO | Not speaking well | Jul 3, 2017 |
Texte Style wrote:
I know excellent translators (one now working at the Hague further to my reccommendation) who don't speak their source language. Some prefer not to reveal their inability to conjugate. I remember one telling me that she wasn't going to put herself at a disadvantage when ringing my boss to demand payment. From what I have seen proofreading these excellent translators, this inability does not in any way impact their production of texts that read well.
Writing well is a skill in its own right: the ability to set your ideas forth in a way that means people can understand, manipulating the language to achieve effects such as surprise or humour, homing in on the exact word that resonates with the reader, making references that they may relate to easily, withholding then revealing information at the right time... While it's very useful in marketing, tourism, cultural texts, it's perhaps not entirely necessary to translate a handbook for hairdryers.
I've been learning Portuguese in the last years, having spent six months in Portugal and engaged in conversations with a variety of local people in different situations. Do I feel confident writing in Portuguese? Not yet, not by a long shot, except for short emails. However, my reading skills are much more developed and I can understand 70-80% of what I read in Portuguese, on average. I can speak it fluently but not always correctly (by 'fluently' I mean the broad meaning, to speak at an acceptable pace to be intelligible to and understood by others).
The point being, speaking skills (or lack thereof) do not necessarily interfere with writing skills. Conversely, a translator should be judged or qualified by how she writes, not by how she speaks, the involved languages.
| | | | S_G_C (X)
Romênia
Local time: 04:40
inglês para romeno
Tom in London wrote:
I have the advantage of also being an academic, a published author, and a journalist, with a love for the skilful use of language that comes naturally to many Irish people like myself.
When I graduated from college, I had to submit my BA paper either in English or in French. I chose English and wrote about the Irish myths and legends (with images). It was one of the most enjoyable papers I had ever written. I got a perfect 10.
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Mario Chavez wrote:
The point being, speaking skills (or lack thereof) do not necessarily interfere with writing skills. Conversely, a translator should be judged or qualified by how she writes, not by how she speaks, the involved languages.
To me, not being able to speak the source language fluently indicates the person in question hasn't spent enough time in the source language country, with all the consequences... not understanding all the nuances of the source language and no in-depth grasp of the country's culture. To me, these two are fundamental aspects for a professional translator. I agree that the lack of speaking skills do not necessarily interfere with writing skills, but it points to other key issues...
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
To me, not being able to speak the source language fluently indicates the person in question hasn't spent enough time in the source language country, with all the consequences... not understanding all the nuances of the source language and no in-depth grasp of the country's culture. To me, these two are fundamental aspects for a professional translator. I agree that the lack of speaking skills do not necessarily interfere with writing skills, but it points to other key issues...
But many (most?) translations do not require any grasp of nuances or culture.
Just as many (most?) do not require finely honed writing skills.
Many (most?) translations are incredibly mundane and might as well be done by a machine.
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| it all depends... | Jul 4, 2017 |
Chris S wrote:
But many (most?) translations do not require any grasp of nuances or culture.
Just as many (most?) do not require finely honed writing skills.
Many (most?) translations are incredibly mundane and might as well be done by a machine.
yes, it depends on your specialisation, I guess. If you do most technical texts, then you don't need to be versed in the culture, but it would help understanding the text better. I'm of the opinion that spending a good chunk of time in the country of your source language(s) every year makes you a better translator. And you can actually call your clients on the phone without turning into a nervous wreck...
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Espanha
Local time: 02:40
Membro (2007)
inglês
+ ...
| Being able to speak it is a huge advantage | Jul 4, 2017 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
I'm of the opinion that spending a good chunk of time in the country of your source language(s) every year makes you a better translator. And you can actually call your clients on the phone without turning into a nervous wreck...
Spending significant time every year in two or more countries is something that few of us can aspire to, although it would be fun as well as useful.
I took a call from a French agency while still in bed this morning, so I can vouch for the fact that actually being able to speak the language is very useful. My only problem was pushing the Spanish alphabet to the background when asked to spell out my email address. No, E isn't A, it's er .
| | | | | Translation IS writing | Jul 4, 2017 |
Chris S wrote:
Translation is first and foremost a matter of, well, translation. Not good writing.
Understanding the source and communicating it adequately in the target.
(...) Good writing is just the icing on the cake.
OK, it's important in some contexts, but unnecessary in most.
I strongly disagree: translation IS writing.
Good translation is knowing how to correctly understand the nuanced meaning of the original in its context (i.e. good knowledge of the SL and excellent knowledge of the subject matter); knowing how to convey that meaning in the target language (i.e., native-level knowledge of the TL plus deep knowledge of the specific terminology used in the subject matter field in the TL), plus good writing in the target language.
And "good writing" means different things in different contexts: in the translation of a technical manual it may mean a clear explanation of whatever it is the manual describes (even when such explanation is not all that clear in the source text... because the source text itself was not well written); in the translation a marketing text good writing must surely mean that the translated text is as effective at marketing as the source text was; in the translation of a popular fiction page-turner, good writing is writing that entices you to keep on reading to see how the story ends.
Good writing is not an optional embellishment you add only when required. It is what good translators do.
| | | | | Of course most translation do require a full grasp of nuances | Jul 4, 2017 |
Chris S wrote:
But many (most?) translations do not require any grasp of nuances or culture.
Just as many (most?) do not require finely honed writing skills.
Many (most?) translations are incredibly mundane and might as well be done by a machine.
Unless a text is very specifically written in a controlled language (and this is, in itself, a demanding skill to learn), nuances, idioms and other subtextual elements are present in most texts.
A translator who does not grasps nuances or know cultural differences is not, IMHO, a translator.
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| Translation is a complex activity | Jul 4, 2017 |
Disclaimer: I am a bilingual person…
It is a popular outside view that bilinguals are bound to make good translators.
It reminds me of the long-lasting confusion between translation and interpretation.
The reality is quite different. Even if we define bilingualism as mastering (not just speaking) two languages, the assumption is still not true. In fact, native bilinguals are probably more prone to linguistic interference, which hinders the translat... See more Disclaimer: I am a bilingual person…
It is a popular outside view that bilinguals are bound to make good translators.
It reminds me of the long-lasting confusion between translation and interpretation.
The reality is quite different. Even if we define bilingualism as mastering (not just speaking) two languages, the assumption is still not true. In fact, native bilinguals are probably more prone to linguistic interference, which hinders the translation process.
Translation is a complex activity that requires a combination of several skills to be performed successfully. While writing well in the source language is a welcome advantage, I would not call it a requirement.
I’ll quote two French authors/academics to illustrate the diversity of necessary translator’s abilities.
in his book “Traduction. La comprendre, l’apprendre.” (Understanding and learning translation), Daniel Giles offers some BASIC skills a translator should possess:
—Sufficient understanding of the source language in its written form
We’re talking about a passive knowledge. Not speaking, nor writing, nor understanding speech, just understanding written text. Of course, the cultural aspect is not independent from the language skill.
The required level varies depending on the text (and context).
—General extra-linguistic knowledge as well as specialized knowledge
Apart from a certain minimum general knowledge, one needs to acquire specialized knowledge to tackle specific fields. Some of this knowledge can be gained ad hoc, during the documentary research and when encountering specific translation problems. This requirement has its limits.
—Good writing skills in target language
The translator is a writer. Again, the required skill can vary a lot depending on the situation.
—Mastering of translation principles and approach (transfer competence)
Both as knowledge and as know-how. This is often neglected by outsiders. A perfect bilingual and a subject matter expert can both still produce many errors during the interlinguistic transfer if they are not acquainted with translation techniques and strategies. Before being a specialist in his chosen fields, a translator is a specialist in translation. This is his core specialty.
—Professional translation market skills, knowledge of the practical and commercial aspects of translation.
For Jean Delisle, in his book “La traduction raisonnée” (Reasoned translation), translating is the linguistic handling at the junction of two languages. At one point, he states that (learning) translation involves (learning):
A double compétence
1. The competence to understand the texts to translate
2. The competence to re-express their meaning (content and form).
Four skills
1. Dissociating source and target languages (and avoiding linguistic interference)
2. Applying translation processes (and conducting appropriately the interlinguistic transfer)
3. Integrating non-linguistic knowledge (cognitive complements) to linguistic statements
4. Mastering writing techniques (knowing the inside outs of the written language).
In three different levels
1. Knowledge of writing rules (knowledge of language’s coded uses, grammar, syntax, punctuation, capitalization, numbers, etc.)
2. Interpretation (knowledge of how to identify the appropriate meaning of words and statements within a given context)
3. Coherence (of the discourse and its logic).
I really like The Interpretive Theory of Translation that inspires Jean Delisle, with its deverbalization step between understanding the (source) text and re-expressing its meaning (in the target text).
And I for one agree that, when it comes to translation, good understanding is crucial for the target language and good writing skills are crucial for the source language. And that apart from linguistic skills, one also needs to possess translation skills. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bósnia-Herzegóvina
Local time: 03:40
Membro (2009)
inglês para croata
+ ...
| More on writing skills.. | Jul 5, 2017 |
Saying that writing skills are not needed in translation is like saying that geometry skills and spatial awareness are not needed in architecture.
And this is regardless of the subject matter. Even when I browse technical texts for personal or informative purposes, some are written in an engaging and organized way while many others are not. Guess which ones make me want to finish the reading and come back for more.
[Edited at 2017-07-05 06:51 GMT]
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