| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11] > | Allow site members/users to rate each job posting Thread poster: Robert Forstag
|
|---|
| worse than no change? | Oct 17, 2009 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
To those who say that there can be no change, or worse yet, that the situation is so dismal that nothing can be done except to deliver rambling soliloquies that warn of the encroaching doom, I can only say that I don't share those views. Nor, apparently, do most of those who have posted on this thread.
[Edited at 2009-10-16 16:39 GMT]
and what's that? I haven't seen any rambling soliloquies or warnings of encroaching doom... caning agencies in public is not something Proz.com will ever approve of and if you think it will be implemented, you are very naive...
| | | | | 2 Simple System Tweaks | Oct 17, 2009 |
I think your suggestions (and others) are excellent Robert. Based on the current ProZ system, I definitely think it would be good to have some way of being able to rate job postings, or at least view the ranking of the rate offered. There are clear issues for a lot of linguists regarding the standard of job postings being displayed to them. However, it seems ProZ are not prepared to take these issues on board and deal with them... In a recent effort to try to establish how fellow linguists are f... See more I think your suggestions (and others) are excellent Robert. Based on the current ProZ system, I definitely think it would be good to have some way of being able to rate job postings, or at least view the ranking of the rate offered. There are clear issues for a lot of linguists regarding the standard of job postings being displayed to them. However, it seems ProZ are not prepared to take these issues on board and deal with them... In a recent effort to try to establish how fellow linguists are feeling about these issues, I have repeatedly tried to publish a quick poll on the subject, but ProZ just ignore my requests and don’t publish it (my most recent attempt being in the last hour).
Here is that poll:
Question: How do you respond to requests for 'Best Rates' in job postings?
I offer my highest rate (best for me)
I offer my lowest rate
I offer my normal rate
I reduce my lowest rate
I ignore the request (Please Discuss)
ProZ, it seems, are intent on not publishing this poll; why? I have no idea, as they just don’t get back to me. I can only imagine they feel this is a ‘grey’ area that they do not want to deal with, so choose to simply ignore it. But as this discussion demonstrates, this is real issue for a lot of linguists that needs to be addressed by ProZ.
I've thought about the issue a lot over the years, and realise it’s very difficult to devise a one-size-fits-all system for job postings, based on the sheer diversity in the marketplace. However, one idea I think might work well would be for ProZ to tweak the system in 2 simple ways:
1 Make it compulsory for outsourcers to indicate the rate they are offering at the time of posting the job, regardless of what that rate might be.
2 Apply a filter to the job postings page for each linguist based on the minimum rate they have entered in their profile -- this way, jobs would only be displayed to linguists that meet their minimum pricing criteria.
So let’s say, I have the minimum rate in my profile set to €0.07 p/w; with this system, job postings would only be displayed to me that offer a rate that is equal to or greater than €0.07 p/w.
I think ProZ should place the onus on the outsourcer to state what they are looking for price-wise by making it compulsory to indicate the rate they are offering from the outset. By doing so, it would facilitate a fairer working system for all concerned.
In my experience, there are always going to be outsourcers who are not in the slightest bit interested in quality, and just want the lowest rates possible. Similarly, there are always going to be linguists who are prepared to work for -- what is considered -- very low rates by some, but that may be perfectly acceptable to them, regardless of whether quality is included in the equation or not.
However, I only offer a quality-focused service, and am not prepared to lower my rates based on that service; I am also unable to lower my rates based on the cost of living in Spain. But I also know that there are a lot of outsourcers out there who are prepared to pay for quality -- these are the outsourcers I wish to do business with.
I believe this ‘grey’ area would be cleared up by implementing a system that filters job postings based on linguists’ minimum rates, as it would be more targeted and transparent from the outset. Linguists would only see the jobs that they would be prepared to quote on. Outsourcers could target the translators they are really seeking in terms of what they are prepared to pay. Everyone would be a winner, so to speak.
Very interesting discussion.
SaludoZ
[Edited at 2009-10-17 15:26 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Williamson 
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:19
Flemish to English
+ ...
| Eternal whining | Oct 17, 2009 |
0.08 eurocents, not dollarcents was the rate in 1989.
Now life has become far more expensive.
Yet 0.06-0.08 cent is still the average.
However, instead of endless threads about rates, I set my rate. Everybody is free to make inquiries and I will politly tell them NO if their offer is below my minumum rate, which is 0.10-0.12 for agencies.
If everybody did the same, rates would go up and the eternal whining would end.
If others want to work for 0.07 DOLLARCENTS or... See more 0.08 eurocents, not dollarcents was the rate in 1989.
Now life has become far more expensive.
Yet 0.06-0.08 cent is still the average.
However, instead of endless threads about rates, I set my rate. Everybody is free to make inquiries and I will politly tell them NO if their offer is below my minumum rate, which is 0.10-0.12 for agencies.
If everybody did the same, rates would go up and the eternal whining would end.
If others want to work for 0.07 DOLLARCENTS or 0.0325 eurocents let it be.
Moreover, many here have only one activity to fall back on: translation.
Create a second activity as a backup might not be such a bad idea. It allows you to stick to your guns.
[Edited at 2009-10-17 16:06 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Milos Prudek
Czech Republic
Local time: 00:19
English to Czech
+ ...
| Translators should know the rate range | Oct 17, 2009 |
I respect people willing to work for 0.01 EUR per word or less. It is not my market, but I respect it. We need a way to know an approximate rate for a given language combination and a given outsourcer. Then each translator can choose his/her favourite market and favourite group of outsourcers.
I submitted a support request for proz.com staff to join this discussion. Each of you can do the same.
[Edited at 2009-10-17 15:47 GMT]
| | |
|
|
|
| My answer to the poll | Oct 17, 2009 |
James A Walsh wrote:
Question: How do you respond to requests for 'Best Rates' in job postings?
I offer my highest rate (best for me)
I offer my lowest rate
I offer my normal rate
I reduce my lowest rate
I ignore the request (Please Discuss)
I ignore the request, knowing what it means.
As a colleague said at a conference here in Italy last week: my best rate??? What is best for me! 200 € per word!
Cheers
Paola
[Edited at 2009-10-17 16:07 GMT]
| | | | | Here's also my answer to James's Poll | Oct 17, 2009 |
James A Walsh wrote:
Question: How do you respond to requests for 'Best Rates' in job postings?
I offer my highest rate (best for me)
I offer my lowest rate
I offer my normal rate
I reduce my lowest rate
I ignore the request (Please Discuss)
My answer is :"I offer my normal rate".
At least this is what I will do from now on.
Ciao,
Cristina
| | | | Kay Barbara
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:19
Member (2008)
English to German
+ ...
| Yet again: educating clients | Oct 17, 2009 |
James A Walsh wrote:
In my experience, there are always going to be outsourcers who are not in the slightest bit interested in quality, and just want the lowest rates possible. Similarly, there are always going to be linguists who are prepared to work for -- what is considered -- very low rates by some, but that may be perfectly acceptable to them, regardless of whether quality is included in the equation or not.
I agree, however, you went on to suggest putting an even stronger focus on the price:
James A Walsh wrote:
I think ProZ should place the onus on the outsourcer to state what they are looking for price-wise by making it compulsory to indicate the rate they are offering from the outset.
and then...
James A Walsh wrote:
However, I only offer a quality-focused service, and am not prepared to lower my rates based on that service; I am also unable to lower my rates based on the cost of living in Spain. But I also know that there are a lot of outsourcers out there who are prepared to pay for quality -- these are the outsourcers I wish to do business with.
I am with you about the quality-focused service, I do the same. Still, I think your idea is not really appropriate, since (I presume) some potential clients simply do not know what prices to expect from a quality translator.
Let me use this (tongue-in-cheek) example:
If I were completly unaware of the concept of buying a car and visited a local car dealer, I would not have a clue what prices to expect. If I then just told him "I have €xxx (of which I think it is a fair price), do you have anything in that range", chances are that I drive away in a 20-year-old Rover... However, if he told me that the car should have leather seats, A/C and should be something you can actually show other people without being embarrassed, he would probably usher me over to the Mercs and Jaguars...
I said it before and will say it again: Some clients (a minority, admittedly, but still...) looking for translators on ProZ can be "educated" and will reconsider their rates when they realise that you can provide something others simply cannot. However, if you are a mediocre, run-of-the-mill translator (some call them "I-have-20-specialties-and-50-more-working-fields-because-I-am-desperate-for-jobs translator), this is not likely to work.
Don't wait until well-paying clients knock at your door (they probably won't), look for them yourselves. Good luck in the price war, everyone!
Best,
Kay
| | | | Aniello Scognamiglio (X)
Germany
Local time: 00:19
English to German
+ ...
Kay Barbara, Dipl.-Übersetzer wrote:
However, if you are a mediocre, run-of-the-mill translator (some call them "I-have-20-specialties-and-50-more-working-fields-because-I-am-desperate-for-jobs translator), this is not likely to work.
Don't wait until well-paying clients knock at your door (they probably won't), look for them yourselves. Good luck in the price war, everyone!
Thanks, Kay!
| | |
|
|
|
| Different ways of making business | Oct 17, 2009 |
James A Walsh
1 Make it compulsory for outsourcers to indicate the rate they are offering at the time of posting the job, regardless of what that rate might be. I personally would love this option. My answer to your poll is: other: I have only one rate and I always offer it to anybody, no matter if they want my best rate or normal rate.
I stopped looking at jobs a long time ago because most jobs don't state any price and I know I'll be wasting time bidding (and anyway, I don't need it). I prefer if jobs state their price, even low, because I know straight away that it's not for me and I don't need to look at it.
But I think you'll encounter great resistance from other colleagues, because many have expressed in the past that they were against any indication of price in the jobs because they want to remain free from negociating prices with the customer.
I think there's no universal solution to this, because we all have different business practices (I never negociate rates, many do), and it is indeed a good thing that we can lead our business the way we want.
[Modifié le 2009-10-17 17:02 GMT]
| | | | María T. Vargas
Spain
Local time: 00:19
English to Spanish
+ ...
In memoriam | I support you all the way, but... | Oct 17, 2009 |
let me tell you, Bob, that with nr. 656 I've been here long enough to be involved in all sort of discussions and suggestions to do something about apalling rates, but nothing was ever accomplished. My pairs are English Spanish with the largest number of translators worldwide, living in countries where living standards vary too much. We have to be realistic, US $0.03 is completely unacceptable to those based in Europe, like myself, but agencies know this can be acceptable in other continents and... See more let me tell you, Bob, that with nr. 656 I've been here long enough to be involved in all sort of discussions and suggestions to do something about apalling rates, but nothing was ever accomplished. My pairs are English Spanish with the largest number of translators worldwide, living in countries where living standards vary too much. We have to be realistic, US $0.03 is completely unacceptable to those based in Europe, like myself, but agencies know this can be acceptable in other continents and they are confident they will get enough replies to find what they want.
I feel very bad when I see offers at US 0.01 or 0.02 or receive emails asking me if I could do a job for such a rate, but all I can do is refuse, nothing else.
What I do find ery unethical, as a colleague already referred to herein, is to answer a posting for a certain rate, receive the ok from the agency and then after I have refused another job or turned it over to another colleague and am ready to start the project assigned, the agency writes back telling me that if I don't drop my rate 1 or 2 cents, they will lose the job!
When I joined proz, and for a few years, I was assigned many projects with reasonable rates, but let me tell you that in the last five years I've been getting less and less because I refuse to accept very low rates.
I do hope your initiative is successful but I've seen too much to believe something can be done. In any event, good luck! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Gianni Pastore
Italy
Local time: 00:19
Member (2007)
English to Italian
James A Walsh wrote:
Question: How do you respond to requests for 'Best Rates' in job postings?
I don't. Whoever ask such question is in no way interested in quality. So, why should I bother?
G
| | | | Eric Hahn (X)
France
Local time: 00:19
French to German
+ ...
| Merely downbidding | Oct 17, 2009 |
María T. Vargas wrote:
I feel very bad when I see offers at US 0.01 or 0.02 or receive emails asking me if I could do a job for such a rate, but all I can do is refuse, nothing else.
That's the free market economy for you !
Anyway, what do you expect from a price mechanism only based on downbidding ?
| | |
|
|
|
Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 00:19
French to German
+ ...
| What we could expect in the future... | Oct 18, 2009 |
Eric Hahn wrote: María T. Vargas wrote:
I feel very bad when I see offers at US 0.01 or 0.02 or receive emails asking me if I could do a job for such a rate, but all I can do is refuse, nothing else. That's the free market economy for you ! Anyway, what do you expect from a price mechanism only based on downbidding ?
but just kidding is to actually pay the outsourcer in order to get an assignment (which we already do by accepting lower rates based on sliding scales).
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 00:19
French to German
+ ...
| To answer your poll, James | Oct 18, 2009 |
James A Walsh wrote:
Question: How do you respond to requests for 'Best Rates' in job postings?
I offer my highest rate (best for me)
I offer my lowest rate
I offer my normal rate
I reduce my lowest rate
I ignore the request (Please Discuss)
I offer my standard rate if I can see from the BB or other lists/fora that the outsourcer has good ratings for the two last years or more and if they are located within the EU. Else I will ignore it.
Why ignore it? Because these are always the same entities coming back and back again - they have no room for discussing prices, as they have accepted low rates themselves.
[Edited at 2009-10-18 15:04 GMT]
| | | | | Answer to the poll | Oct 18, 2009 |
Since I know they are asking for our lowest rate, that's what I give them. My lowest rate. Which is to say, 0.10~0.12 euro per sw.
I think we have to stop ignoring those offers. We need to (try to) educate these people.
*****
http://geraldineoudin.com
[Modifié le 2009-10-18 12:03 GMT]
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Allow site members/users to rate each job posting | Protemos translation business management system | Create your account in minutes, and start working! 3-month trial for agencies, and free for freelancers!
The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.
More info » |
| | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
Trados Business Manager Lite helps to simplify and speed up some of the daily tasks, such as invoicing and reporting, associated with running your freelance translation business.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
