| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11] > | Allow site members/users to rate each job posting Thread poster: Robert Forstag
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Milos Prudek 
Czech Republic
Local time: 18:13
English to Czech
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| proz.com refuses to implement anything | Oct 22, 2009 |
Paola Dentifrigi wrote: PS The answer is probably no 
Indeed it is. I submitted my suggestion (translators register fees paid by an outsourcer for a given language combination, proz.com averages the rates and displays the average rates for each outsourcer) as a support ticket under "suggestion". I received a canned, i.e. automated response. Proz filed my suggestion under "backlog of ideas".
This used to be nice way of saying no in the last century. In this century, customers are smarter and they see automated sweet refusals as offensive.
| | | | | Don't shoot the messenger... | Oct 22, 2009 |
I don't quite believe I'm going to say this , but Proz.com is just a tool, a platform and therefore is not responsible. Proz.com cannot regulate the market and cannot restrict what the posters offer. It's a shame, but it's the reality. People can still use the directory to contact good translators. Sure, it's more time-consuming, but this is the way it is.
It was clear from the beginning that the job system would coll... See more I don't quite believe I'm going to say this, but Proz.com is just a tool, a platform and therefore is not responsible. Proz.com cannot regulate the market and cannot restrict what the posters offer. It's a shame, but it's the reality. People can still use the directory to contact good translators. Sure, it's more time-consuming, but this is the way it is.
It was clear from the beginning that the job system would collapse, at some point. Personally - since Proz.com refused to reintroduce the name of the poster/agency/outsourcer in the job posting e-mails - I don't bother with the job postings anymore... I just know it will be a rubbish job at rubbish rates.
The situation has further deteriorated in this financial climate. Lots of unexperienced wanna-be translators are flooding the market with abysmal rates in order to regain a share of it. The demand for low rate jobs is there and some outsourcers take advantage of this. Shame that this impacts on members and agencies who want to post good jobs. If you get flooded with lots of unrelated applications, you just stop after a few tries... time is money...
Finally, don't shoot the messenger... as I said before, Proz.com is only providing the platform. I do blame Proz.com for one thing, though. As a public platform, it offers visibility. Unfortunately, it also offers visibility to the appalling rates, giving the impression that those are the ongoing rates, degrading the value of our profession.
What we are seeing now is just a normal evolution of an unregulated job market, nothing more nothing less. We all knew it would happen... we all knew Proz.com would do nothing about it, because it's not its responsability to manage our professional activities. We are. ▲ Collapse
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
we all knew Proz.com would do nothing about it, because it's not its responsability to manage our professional activities. We are.
Yes, indeed, we are responsible. But as I am paying other 2 prof. associations already, I might choose to invest my Platinum membership's money elsewhere, if I do not see any improvement. This what I call managing my professional activity - income as well as expenditures
Paola
PS I won't shoot you. I'll shoot the pianist tonight (Sakamoto) instead.
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Paola Dentifrigi wrote: Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
we all knew Proz.com would do nothing about it, because it's not its responsability to manage our professional activities. We are. Yes, indeed, we are responsible. But as I am paying other 2 prof. associations already, I might choose to invest my Platinum membership's money elsewhere, if I do not see any improvement. This what I call managing my professional activity - income as well as expenditures Paola PS I won't shoot you. I'll shoot the pianist tonight (Sakamoto) instead.
I'm paying two as well... we'll all vote with our feet when it's time to renew our membership...
P.S. Enjoy Sakamoto...
| | | | | bringing people here | Oct 22, 2009 |
Perhaps it's the wrong thread for my question, but do you place a link to your proz profile from your websites?
I am still in two minds.
It seems to me once the direct clients are here, they catch a disease of low rates. Or am I mistaken?
| | | | | | Aniello Scognamiglio (X)
Germany
Local time: 18:13
English to German
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
Finally, don't shoot the messenger... as I said before, Proz.com is only providing the platform. I do blame Proz.com for one thing, though. As a public platform, it offers visibility. Unfortunately, it also offers visibility to the appalling rates, giving the impression that those are the ongoing rates, degrading the value of our profession.
That's right, Giovanni, you have a point, but:
Only beginners, wannabes, amateurs and unexperienced people will think that those are the ongoing rates, whatever you mean by 'those'
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Eric Hahn (X)
France
Local time: 18:13
French to German
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote: I don't quite believe I'm going to say this , but Proz.com is just a tool, a platform and therefore is not responsible. Proz.com cannot regulate the market and cannot restrict what the posters offer. It's a shame, but it's the reality. People can still use the directory to contact good translators. Sure, it's more time-consuming, but this is the way it is.
I think we are all aware of this, and the real shame is that it _could_ be a great tool.
But presently, it harms both outsourcers and freelancers instead of bringing them together.
[Edited at 2009-10-22 14:27 GMT]
| | | | apk12
Germany
Local time: 18:13
English to German
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"...we all knew Proz.com would do nothing about it, because it's not its responsability to manage our professional activities. We are. ..."
we are, indeed. we have our own "business-private" responsibility. but since "tools" usually play a crucial role if talking about success in getting something done, I would call the overall responsibility of proz an a bit larger one.
agree with the topic starter post entirely.
we need
-... See more "...we all knew Proz.com would do nothing about it, because it's not its responsability to manage our professional activities. We are. ..."
we are, indeed. we have our own "business-private" responsibility. but since "tools" usually play a crucial role if talking about success in getting something done, I would call the overall responsibility of proz an a bit larger one.
agree with the topic starter post entirely.
we need
- the ability to categorize the agencies: see either radovans idea to rate them in a blueboard-connected way - if the agencies do not post their rates themselves (hoping that they also can get the delicious part of the cake resulting from down-bidding on jobs + rates secret in general)
- the ability to answer to job posting: rating/comments. (needed as long as job posting discount rates are there - open or hidden after changes) - in fact, a pure number rating would be at least something, but with place for at least a short comment even better, I think.
[Edited at 2010-04-05 12:34 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Milos Prudek
Czech Republic
Local time: 18:13
English to Czech
+ ...
The recent changes to the job posting system may not achieve as much as they should if they can be circumvented. Involving human reviewers is a sustainable way to promote good job offers.
Some job offer rating should be considered. Any paying member - freelance translator - of proz.com could rate job offers. A voluntary "job offer rater" would spend 10-30 seconds looking at each job offer and rate each job offer on a scale of 1 to 3 (or 1 to 5).
Some rating guidelines ... See more The recent changes to the job posting system may not achieve as much as they should if they can be circumvented. Involving human reviewers is a sustainable way to promote good job offers.
Some job offer rating should be considered. Any paying member - freelance translator - of proz.com could rate job offers. A voluntary "job offer rater" would spend 10-30 seconds looking at each job offer and rate each job offer on a scale of 1 to 3 (or 1 to 5).
Some rating guidelines would be published. The rating would reflect offer quality, such as "good description of the text, sample text provided, no free translation test requested".
A proz.com freelance member could rate as many or as few or no jobs. Some kudoz rewards could be provided for rating.
This rating system is a proven solution for many high-submission websites such as digg.com, reddit.com, slashdot.org.
[Edited at 2010-04-12 07:14 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Fatima Argun
United States
Local time: 12:13
Member (2006)
English to Turkish
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| excellent suggestion! | Dec 17, 2013 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
I have found the increasing number of offers posted on proz.com with appallingly low rates very disturbing indeed. For present purposes, I would define an “appallingly low rate” as less than half of the average rate for a given language pair. The trend is all the more worrisome because there are hardly any postings any more for jobs offering mediocre—or even slightly substandard—rates.
This is the case with respect to Spanish-to-English, the only pair I work in. Others tell me they have the same concerns regarding various other language pairs.
Surely it is not the intention of this site to promote “bottom-of-the barrel” rates for the freelancers who support proz.com with their membership fees, as well as with the time and energy they put in to the site through participation in Kudoz, forums and other site components.
I understand full well the principles of the free market and the global economy, and I am not in favor of setting any kind of floor regarding offers. Yet I do feel that, in the interest of balance and fair play, the site should provide the opportunity for: 1.) freelancers to provide feedback in an organized and public way regarding job postings; 2.) companies making the outrageous offers—as well as those that make offers within or above market range—to be publicly identified on the site. After all, the rates offered by an outsourcer—again, within a given language pair—are nearly as important for the purposes of rating their desirability as whether or not they pay on time (and a good deal more important, I might add, than whether a project manager is “nice” or “pleasant”, which ought to be expected as a matter of course and not lauded as something extraordinary, as it so often is in the Blue Board ratings).
To this end, a simple pair of radial buttons can be attached to each posting allowing translators eligible to respond to a given offer to indicate whether they did or did not like it. This would be similar to amazon.com’s allowing browsers of their site to indicate whether they have found reader-submitted reviews helpful, or yahoo.com or facebook.com allowing their site users to indicate whether they like or dislike a posted ad.
These ratings could also become part of the Blue Board ratings of the companies in question, and can be reported either individually with respect to each offer, cumulatively, or both.
I would be interested to hear what others—site members and users, as well as site staff—think about this idea.
Very well articulated and highly worthy of consideration by proz.
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| A very interesting idea indeed | Dec 17, 2013 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
I have found the increasing number of offers posted on proz.com with appallingly low rates very disturbing indeed. For present purposes, I would define an “appallingly low rate” as less than half of the average rate for a given language pair. The trend is all the more worrisome because there are hardly any postings any more for jobs offering mediocre—or even slightly substandard—rates.
This is the case with respect to Spanish-to-English, the only pair I work in. Others tell me they have the same concerns regarding various other language pairs.
Surely it is not the intention of this site to promote “bottom-of-the barrel” rates for the freelancers who support proz.com with their membership fees, as well as with the time and energy they put in to the site through participation in Kudoz, forums and other site components.
I understand full well the principles of the free market and the global economy, and I am not in favor of setting any kind of floor regarding offers. Yet I do feel that, in the interest of balance and fair play, the site should provide the opportunity for: 1.) freelancers to provide feedback in an organized and public way regarding job postings; 2.) companies making the outrageous offers—as well as those that make offers within or above market range—to be publicly identified on the site. After all, the rates offered by an outsourcer—again, within a given language pair—are nearly as important for the purposes of rating their desirability as whether or not they pay on time (and a good deal more important, I might add, than whether a project manager is “nice” or “pleasant”, which ought to be expected as a matter of course and not lauded as something extraordinary, as it so often is in the Blue Board ratings).
To this end, a simple pair of radial buttons can be attached to each posting allowing translators eligible to respond to a given offer to indicate whether they did or did not like it. This would be similar to amazon.com’s allowing browsers of their site to indicate whether they have found reader-submitted reviews helpful, or yahoo.com or facebook.com allowing their site users to indicate whether they like or dislike a posted ad.
These ratings could also become part of the Blue Board ratings of the companies in question, and can be reported either individually with respect to each offer, cumulatively, or both.
I would be interested to hear what others—site members and users, as well as site staff—think about this idea.
I agree.
Cristina
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 12:13
Spanish to English
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TOPIC STARTER | A tool that would seem consistent with this site's general approach | Dec 17, 2013 |
I was surprised and gratified to see this thread--regarding a suggestion I made more than four years ago--recently reopened. I still think that it is a good idea and that it is also realistic in terms of this site's general outsourcer-friendly and laissez-faire "let-the-market-determine-rates" approach to such matters. Something along these lines would enable agencies posting jobs that offer at least "decent" rates to distinguish themselves from the bottom feeders, and for the latter to ... See more I was surprised and gratified to see this thread--regarding a suggestion I made more than four years ago--recently reopened. I still think that it is a good idea and that it is also realistic in terms of this site's general outsourcer-friendly and laissez-faire "let-the-market-determine-rates" approach to such matters. Something along these lines would enable agencies posting jobs that offer at least "decent" rates to distinguish themselves from the bottom feeders, and for the latter to be more immediately seen for what they are--without, of course, doing anything to keep them or the freelancers who fight over their crumbs like starving dogs, from doing business with one another.
[Edited at 2013-12-17 23:21 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | This looks like a good idea | Dec 17, 2013 |
Giving more visibility to translators' opinions about rates and conditions is a useful tool to educate those unexperienced and frightened colleagues who would accept low rates and who are not following the frequent forum discussions or blog entries about this topic. I support this idea - I would love to see this implemented!
I would consider a rating function for job postings not as a tool to punish or reward agencies, but as an educational and informational tool to educate translat... See more Giving more visibility to translators' opinions about rates and conditions is a useful tool to educate those unexperienced and frightened colleagues who would accept low rates and who are not following the frequent forum discussions or blog entries about this topic. I support this idea - I would love to see this implemented!
I would consider a rating function for job postings not as a tool to punish or reward agencies, but as an educational and informational tool to educate translators who search for jobs there. If consciousness can be raised among those that accept subhuman conditions, they might feel encouraged to negotiate for better conditions.
Agencies cannot be blamed for trying to get the best service for the best price. Who wouldn't? But translators can be educated to develop better negotiation skills and not undersell their services. And this could be part of such an education, just like the average rates information, that should have a much more prominent position on this website.
Best regards,
Anna ▲ Collapse
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