| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | The Kudoz semi-gangs Thread poster: Doaa Alnajjar
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| semi-gangs or not, you can make the most out of Kudoz | Oct 21, 2013 |
I agree with those who see the kudoz system as an opportunity to share, and "meet" other translators. I have noticed that when I participate in kudoz, I receive hits on my CV. This shows that those posting questions, and probably other answerers, do not limit themselves to your post - they try to "know you".
As a matter of fact, I do so myself. Kudoz is a good arena for networking.
In my language pair, I don't dream of reaching the top. However, I would like to get a "few" poi... See more I agree with those who see the kudoz system as an opportunity to share, and "meet" other translators. I have noticed that when I participate in kudoz, I receive hits on my CV. This shows that those posting questions, and probably other answerers, do not limit themselves to your post - they try to "know you".
As a matter of fact, I do so myself. Kudoz is a good arena for networking.
In my language pair, I don't dream of reaching the top. However, I would like to get a "few" points that will add some weight to my profile. I think kudoz is just one of the ways to improve on one's profile and visibility - there are other ways (WWA for example), with no risk of confronting semi-gangs.
I have not faced the gang-problem before, but have come across offensive comment. I translated "manchonnée" in a kudoz - [familles de connexions (filetées/manchonnées, semi flush, flush)..."] - as "sleeved" and received the follwowing comment: "No sleeves on tubes - maybe on shirts".
We have to be cautious in the way we give comments - remain friendly and polite, even when we are "certain" the poster is wrong.
[Edited at 2013-10-21 17:31 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Hi Doaa:
My way is the peace and calm way. Not because you are wrong or weak or afraid. Not at all. Getting excited makes you think about quitting... why? This is not probably not
the first time that you or I feel mistreated... so? Do we have to hit back every time?
If yes, then you have lost your freedom to act as well.
The answer to feelings of unjust treatment is not quitting or hitting back!
The answer is to say "This is not fair... ".. but... See more Hi Doaa:
My way is the peace and calm way. Not because you are wrong or weak or afraid. Not at all. Getting excited makes you think about quitting... why? This is not probably not
the first time that you or I feel mistreated... so? Do we have to hit back every time?
If yes, then you have lost your freedom to act as well.
The answer to feelings of unjust treatment is not quitting or hitting back!
The answer is to say "This is not fair... ".. but I am going to persevere.. You know
what? Eventually you will win if you are right! Few people cannot derail you.
but you also have to be careful to realize that at times:
1) you could actually be wrong - you may not have all the facts. I am a Ph.D. chemist,
but still a freshmen can correct a mistake I make..
2) you may be right, but others may think you are wrong..
If you persevere, without being controlled by what others do or say, you will win.!!
Best,
Zareh ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Too much importance | Oct 22, 2013 |
Hi Doaa:
I think you are placing too much importance on points and what other translators
say about you. It's not like that at at all. Those who will give you jobs don't look at
what others say. They look at what you say. They look at your answers. If THEY agree,
then it's good... If you are consistently maintaining a high score (not in points) but in
giving good answers, no body, no comment, no 0 scores, no disagrees can take that
away from you. It's a... See more Hi Doaa:
I think you are placing too much importance on points and what other translators
say about you. It's not like that at at all. Those who will give you jobs don't look at
what others say. They look at what you say. They look at your answers. If THEY agree,
then it's good... If you are consistently maintaining a high score (not in points) but in
giving good answers, no body, no comment, no 0 scores, no disagrees can take that
away from you. It's a solo game..
Also, eventually, jobs will come to you to the level where it is more than what you
can handle. You will turn some down. So that concern does not exist.
Eventually, you will pick and choose. Do not discard comments - if they are true - just because it comes from someone who opposes you. Use it to your advantage, if it is true. If someone says: "You have made a number of mistakes"... Sure, they may be saying it in a good or bad way.. but that should not matter. You just want to distill the
truth from it.. and if there is a need for improvement, so be it... right? It's not all
science. It's translation.
Example: a document might say chemical binding (where it should really be bonding)... I don't rush to correct it. I first translate it the way it is (even if it is scientifically wrong) then I put a comment.
Another: "blood thinner". There is no blood thinner. It's just an expression referring to anticoagulants. Yes, scientifically not correct, but if that's the way the writer wants, I am not going to argue. I am concerned about translation more than correction. I will add notes, though.
Hope this helps... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tim Friese 
United States
Local time: 10:48
Member (2013)
Arabic to English
+ ...
| Hang in there | Oct 22, 2013 |
Hi Doaa,
All I can add is that while there may be a gang operating in En Ar (and I'm not sure there is), I for one just try to give my agree to what I view as the best answer.
Likewise, I try to only answer when I think I have a quality answer to the question. I've seen you doing the same and so I'm sure you'll be fine!
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| KudoZ is about helping the asker | Oct 22, 2013 |
Doaa ALnajjar wrote:
I joined paid Proz this month after the webinar, and getting to know the Kudoz system so close this time has really made me sorry for each cent I spent on the membership.
You can submit a support request and ask for a pro-rated refund of your membership payment. It will be granted immediately.
Doaa ALnajjar wrote:
I tried to avoid the conspiracy theory way of thinking, but not any more. THERE ARE semi-gangs in the Kudoz communities.
1- Some, not few, old members regularly answering Kudoz have their own supporters who agree to him/her what ever they say, right or wrong. Those "heads of the gang" are either admins in another translators' community website, or great "agreement-giver" to every and each Kudoz a member in the small gang answer. Who ever gets the answer first, the others are just agreeing without a question.
Just try to approach a Kudoz they answered first and you will be attacked, even if your answer is the right one. They will do everything, disagree to decrease your points, give sarcastic little notes, ..you name it. Try to answer back to them and your moderator will raise a head and hide your reply: "personal rather than linguistic," so I do not even have the chance to reply back at their ruddiness? So they know how to play the game and they give the can-not-be-hidden answer? Really?
If you have concrete evidence of unfair or improper behavior in KudoZ, or in any other area of ProZ.com please submit a support request. Please be specific and avoid generalizations.
Doaa ALnajjar wrote:
2- Is Kudoz about who gives the faster answer or who gives the right answer? Why members literally fight to give the fastest answers?
So they just post what ever answer, and then provide the reference and other alternatives to block the way in the face of other answers.
Proz should block notes to answers after the initial answer is submitted, so members can think twice about their answer before they submit it.
KudoZ is about helping the askers, who in turn should select the questions that are most helpful to them. All notes and comments in KudoZ should contribute to the purpose of helping the asker, and blocking them would not contribute to this purpose.
Doaa ALnajjar wrote:
3- The "complimentary agreement" is the one a particular member gives to a Kudoz lonely answer, meanwhile that particular member does NOT give ANY agreements for a discussion Kudoz (with multiple answers) and if he does, he agrees to ALL answers. Such members are afraid of getting disagreed when they answer Kudozes themselves, so they prefer to stay at the safe side.
Forums should not be used to speculate on other members' opinions or motives.
Doaa ALnajjar wrote:
4- Why Proz allows for 1, 2, 3, and 4 points grading? Does my time searching the right answer that the translator agrees with equals 2 points? This is a tool they are giving to translators to lower the points of each others AND that makes Kudoz a total loss of time. It is either I agree, you diverse 4 points, or sorry I do not agree, 0 points, period.
The asker has the right to select the most helpful answer and to assign points to it. Guidelines on this can be found in this FAQ.
Doaa ALnajjar wrote:
5- If Proz is not controlling Kudoz in the right way, why are they making it the criteria to rank the members in their directory? Needless to say, that the majority of the REAL jobs come from the directory direct invitations, at least this is what they taught us in the webinar where I was encouraged to join Proz. Actually, I am feeling sorry for my membership fees I paid in an uncontrolled community, where the old players are trying to dominate and attack fresh ones.
You can request a refund of your membership payment and, of course, you are free to participate or not in KudoZ.
Doaa ALnajjar wrote:
I am not an easy loser, and I will stay and fight till reaching the first place in my languages ranking. I just need a support from the website. Changing the policies will take time, so there should be another way around it.
KudoZ are a tool provide help to the askers and to let answerers demonstrate their language skills. It should not be viewed as a fight. You should not expect ProZ.com to change rules and policies to help you reach the first place in your language pairs.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 17:48
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Enrique Cavalitto wrote: Doaa ALnajjar wrote:
Proz should block notes to answers after the initial answer is submitted, so members can think twice about their answer before they submit it. All notes and comments in KudoZ should contribute to the purpose of helping the asker, and blocking them would not contribute to this purpose.
I think that what Doaa is reporting here is definitely an issue, for I have seen it happen: the fact that answerers can add notes to their answers, combined with the fact that KudoZ really is a race, encourages members to post an initial guess, followed by later attempts to back it up.
However, I do not support Doaa's solution, and I agree with you, Enrique, that removing that notes feature will do more harm than good.
Doaa ALnajjar wrote:
I am not an easy loser, and I will stay and fight till reaching the first place in my languages ranking. KudoZ is a tool to provide help to the askers and to let answerers demonstrate their language skills. It should not be viewed as a fight.
I disagree with your statement, Enrique. The main purpose of KudoZ is to get a high directory ranking -- it's as simple as that.
Of course, KudoZ participation has perks, e.g. getting help with term queries or getting to know one's fellow translators, but those are just perks. And of course, anyone who is unwilling or incapable of using KudoZ for what it is clearly intended for is free to use it for the perks, as many people in this thread have indicated that they do.
And while it may have been possible to approach KudoZ in a gentlemanly fashion when ProZ.com was a lot younger and smaller than it is today, I think there should be no doubt that breaking into the KudoZ leader levels these days can only be done successfully with tactics and strategy.
[Edited at 2013-10-22 22:15 GMT]
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: http://www.proz.com/siterules/general/2#2 |
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 17:48
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| @Doaa, to answer some of your questions | Oct 22, 2013 |
Doaa ALnajjar wrote: Enrique Cavalitto wrote: Doaa ALnajjar wrote:
Such members are afraid of getting disagreed when they answer Kudozes themselves, so they prefer to stay at the safe side. Forums should not be used to speculate on other members' opinions or motives. The ProZ.com forums are provided solely for discussions within ProZ.com's scope, [and KudoZ is within ProZ.com's scope].
To me personally, the thing that is unacceptable is not discussing KudoZ, but speculating about other users' motives or reasons for doing things. You have noticed that some users agree with either all answers or with no answers, and you should be free to say so, but then you speculate about their reason for doing so, and the particular speculation (that they are are afraid) is demeaning.
Doaa ALnajjar wrote:
Again, it is either I agree, you diverse 4 points, or sorry I do not agree, 0 points, period. 2 points means what? I agree to you 50%? That makes the answer not useable in a translation, so why the points? Why the time lost?
I think you misunderstand the points system. I can understand that it may seem that the points should be used as an indication of how accurate the answer is. Well, it is not.
The points are an indication of how "helpful" the asker thinks the answer is (and this usually means "how comprehensive" or "how well-reasoned"). This is why well-written answers often get the points, even if they do not represent the best answer. I do find it unfortunate, therefore, that askers are not allowed to select two answers -- one as being "the most accurate" and one as being "the most helpful".
[Edited at 2013-10-22 23:14 GMT]
| | | | Doaa Alnajjar
Canada
Local time: 09:48
Arabic to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I am not speculating | Oct 22, 2013 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Doaa ALnajjar wrote: Enrique Cavalitto wrote: Doaa ALnajjar wrote:
Such members are afraid of getting disagreed when they answer Kudozes themselves, so they prefer to stay at the safe side. Forums should not be used to speculate on other members' opinions or motives. The ProZ.com forums are provided solely for discussions within ProZ.com's scope, [and KudoZ is within ProZ.com's scope]. To me personally, the thing that is unacceptable is not discussing KudoZ, but speculating about other users' motives or reasons for doing things. You have noticed that some users agree with either all answers or with no answers, and you should be free to say so, but then you speculate about their reason for doing so, and the particular speculation (that they are are afraid) is demeaning.
If I have the right to do so, I would copy and paste here the message I received from an active answerer in my pair Kudoz community, saying he is sorry that he has agreed to me and xxxx(the name of the gang member) although he though that my answer is the right one. I am pasting this from his message that was written in Arabic: الموضوع لازم يمشي مجاملات شوية علشان منخلقش عدوات مع حد وأدفع تمنها
لما يجي عليا الدور حد
translation: it has to go like this from time to time, I have to be complimentary to avoid fights that I will pay off when my turn comes (meaning when he answers Kudoz).
Speculating the "complimentary agree" is not coming from no where. IT IS a truth, and there is someone sending me a message to say I am sorry to agree with both, you and the wrong answer.
[Edited at 2013-10-22 23:24 GMT]
| | | | Andrea Riffo
Chile
Local time: 11:48
English to Spanish
+ ...
Doaa ALnajjar wrote:
Again, it is either I agree, you diverse 4 points, or sorry I do not agree, 0 points, period. 2 points means what? I agree to you 50%? that makes the answer not useable in a translation, so why the points? why the time lost?
Completely disagree
2 can be "your answer helped me get on the right track, though it wasn't exactly accurate". And personally, I don't consider helping someone see their problem from a different perspective as "lost time", even if the answer wasn't awarded 4 points...or none at all.
Then again, I'm not in it for the points or ranking (on the odd times when I find questions that weren't made by someone who's obviously bitten more than they can chew).
[Edited at 2013-10-23 00:58 GMT]
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Samuel Murray wrote: Doaa ALnajjar wrote:
I am not an easy loser, and I will stay and fight till reaching the first place in my languages ranking. KudoZ is a tool to provide help to the askers and to let answerers demonstrate their language skills. It should not be viewed as a fight. I disagree with your statement, Enrique. The main purpose of KudoZ is to get a high directory ranking -- it's as simple as that. Of course, KudoZ participation has perks, e.g. getting help with term queries or getting to know one's fellow translators, but those are just perks. And of course, anyone who is unwilling or incapable of using KudoZ for what it is clearly intended for is free to use it for the perks, as many people in this thread have indicated that they do. And while it may have been possible to approach KudoZ in a gentlemanly fashion when ProZ.com was a lot younger and smaller than it is today, I think there should be no doubt that breaking into the KudoZ leader levels these days can only be done successfully with tactics and strategy.
I believe that the purpose for participating in KudoZ is for many players to get a high directory rating, but for ProZ.com KudoZ was created and is maintained as a service in order to provide help to askers and to enable translators to showcase their language skills. ProZ.com actions should be expected to be in line with these objectives.
Regards,
Enrique
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Hi Doaa,
Thanks for submitting your complains so Support. They will be evaluated within the framework of the ProZ.com rules.
It would be confusing to quote each comment above so I will provide just general answers:
Membership
You wrote "I joined paid Proz this month after the webinar, and getting to know the Kudoz system so close this time has really made me sorry for each cent I spen... See more Hi Doaa,
Thanks for submitting your complains so Support. They will be evaluated within the framework of the ProZ.com rules.
It would be confusing to quote each comment above so I will provide just general answers:
Membership
You wrote "I joined paid Proz this month after the webinar, and getting to know the Kudoz system so close this time has really made me sorry for each cent I spent on the membership."
You can ask for a pro-rated refund, it will be granted, no questions asked. It would be the reasonable thing to do if you are sorry about that investment.
Purpose of KudoZ
Please see my answer to Samuel above.
Assigning 1 to 4 points
Please read the FAQ indicated above. Askers are supposed to select the answers that are most helpful to them, not the most "correct" answers.
Regards,
Enrique ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ali Alsaqqa
United States
Local time: 11:48
English to Arabic
| A member of the English -> Arabic community | Oct 23, 2013 |
As a paid-member of the English -> Arabic community, I would like to share my personal opinion.
I have joined proz late 2009, and since then started making my way through the Kudoz system. Being an engineer, most of the questions I asked was technical in nature. As such, I got lots of points. I continued until my name made it to the first page, then I almost stopped participating in Kudoz. (that was in mid 2010). I am not sure about what's going on now, but at that time I did not no... See more As a paid-member of the English -> Arabic community, I would like to share my personal opinion.
I have joined proz late 2009, and since then started making my way through the Kudoz system. Being an engineer, most of the questions I asked was technical in nature. As such, I got lots of points. I continued until my name made it to the first page, then I almost stopped participating in Kudoz. (that was in mid 2010). I am not sure about what's going on now, but at that time I did not noticed such a "gang war", although I definitely noticed (and tried to report) one particular asker who would post tens of question and then only award 2 points for each. Still, 2 points were better than nothing. I also noted some questions being closed without grading, but still that was rare. Maybe it is because I only answer with confidence and I generally leave no room for speculating, I do not know. Maybe things changed in the past three years.
I also note that I myself found it embarrassing lots of time to "disagree", so I would just reply with a "neutral" comment stating clearly that that answer is wrong. Then it is the asker responsibility to act accordingly.
I feel sorry for what you have said, and I hope things will change. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 17:48
French to German
+ ...
| Competition as in any other place... | Oct 23, 2013 |
This is "competition" as in any other place where people seem to fight for their very survival, nothing to worry about really.
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