| Pages sur ce sujet: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13] > | Limits have been instituted on the number of questions one can ask in 24 hours Auteur du fil: Jason Grimes
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Rafal Piotrowski 
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 20:25
Membre (2009)
anglais vers polonais
+ ...
| Limits are fine, BUT.... | Aug 22, 2005 |
I have read most of the previous posts, and I won't question or support any points touched on (though there are some with which I would do one thing or the other), but I will now come up with my own suggestion:
We can easily imagine a situation in which a translator is faced with a highly-specialised text, and KNOWS in advance that he/she won't be able to handle the job without the help of Proz members (being a member for quite a while, I have got used to being supported, once in a ... See more I have read most of the previous posts, and I won't question or support any points touched on (though there are some with which I would do one thing or the other), but I will now come up with my own suggestion:
We can easily imagine a situation in which a translator is faced with a highly-specialised text, and KNOWS in advance that he/she won't be able to handle the job without the help of Proz members (being a member for quite a while, I have got used to being supported, once in a while, by the collective wisdom of Prozians). I very much like the idea of mutual (multi-lateral, rather) help, and have enjoyed answering questions, and have been happy each time when someone with broader experience helped me solve a problem that no available dictionary could.
Now, if I had a text that contained some 15 terms whose equivalents I wouldn't be able to find anywhere else but on Proz (assuming that they have NOT been entered into the glossaries), WHAT SHOULD I DO (and it is not only my concern, I believe)?
Shall I register under 15 different fake names? Looks almost childish... But if I'm desperate? I could contact peers directly via communicators like Skype, but what if they don't know the answer? I surely cannot know, and have the particulars of all 250 Polish-English Proz answerers.
Therefore: I think that there should be possibilities to expand limits for members (both non-paying and platinium) on an 'exemption' basis , by either paying with browniz, or upon individual consent of moderators. ("Hey, Joe, I'm gonna struggle all nite with a goddam diffucult text on brewing beer in North Cambodia; lemme ask 15 questions, 'cause I won't handle it, OK?")
I'd like to see a situation in which those so happy with the limits face a situation I've described above, and I'd realy LOVE to see their comments. All I'm saying is that the system might turn out to be extremely unfair under certain circumstances, and hit you unexpectedly, and very hard in the face one day.
Best to all,
R.P. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Rafal Piotrowski
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 20:25
Membre (2009)
anglais vers polonais
+ ...
| Yet another thought | Aug 22, 2005 |
Quite obviously, I do not want to market my political beliefs on this forum; yet, a thought has inevitably ocurred:
Do we want to RATION anything here?!
Any systems in which things/goods etc. are subject to rationing, quotas, limitations and the like have proven to be wrong; I lived under a Communist rule for quite a while, so I know what I'm talking about. Can you imagine a city in which the number of taxis is limited by the authorities to, say, 200? Well, I do not nee... See more Quite obviously, I do not want to market my political beliefs on this forum; yet, a thought has inevitably ocurred:
Do we want to RATION anything here?!
Any systems in which things/goods etc. are subject to rationing, quotas, limitations and the like have proven to be wrong; I lived under a Communist rule for quite a while, so I know what I'm talking about. Can you imagine a city in which the number of taxis is limited by the authorities to, say, 200? Well, I do not need to imagine that - I HAVE EXPERIENCED IT. Now, close your eyes and try to think of waiting at a taxi rank for some 40 minutes or so, when there's an urgency. How would you like it?
Have you ever thought why food is so expensive in the EU in comparison with the U.S.? Well, in Europe there are quotas, of course, and the government guarantees to buy farmers' produce, subsidising this legal robbery with our own money. Which would you prefer, paying more or less for THE VERY SAME PRODUCT?!
I could go on like that for hours, but this is not the right forum; if we don't like lurkers/bummers/moochers/you name them, why don't we simply ignore them all? We used to be able to squash questions - why did this function disappear? I guess there is a number of people who will rave at them 'in the open', at the same time meticulously collecting points, looking proudly at their KudoZ point records.
My point is: is there place for liberty on Proz, or are we turning into a society that is governed by restrictions, limitations, rules, regulations and not much more? Don't we all benefit from the free market as freelancers/agencies? Referring to my previous post, I'd now like to tell you that in a fictitious (and not so much unlike!) situation I described above, I'd feel like in the good old times of Uncle Stalin, waiting at the taxi rank with my sick child in my arms, in a desperate need to get to the nearest hospital.
Thank you for your attention - R.P.
P.S. Naturally, as a supporter of free market economy, I cannot disagree with the idea that Platinium members should be getting more out of the system for their money. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kim Metzger
Mexique
Local time: 13:25
allemand vers anglais
| Limits have been instituted | Aug 22, 2005 |
Rafal Piotrowski wrote:
We can easily imagine a situation in which a translator is faced with a highly-specialised text, and KNOWS in advance that he/she won't be able to handle the job without the help of Proz members (being a member for quite a while, I have got used to being supported, once in a while, by the collective wisdom of Prozians). I very much like the idea of mutual (multi-lateral, rather) help, and have enjoyed answering questions, and have been happy each time when someone with broader experience helped me solve a problem that no available dictionary could.
Therefore: I think that there should be possibilities to expand limits for members (both non-paying and platinium) on an 'exemption' basis , by either paying with browniz, or upon individual consent of moderators.
Hello Rafal, you are a skilled, honest and persuasive writer. When I read something so well written, I almost don't care what argument is being advanced.
I don't think many pro translators will often face the scenario you describe and I do believe your 'exemption basis' proposal is already being considered and will come to pass before long - this is my personal opinion.
But I am a firm supporter of limits for people who have discovered KudoZ as a way to get paid for jobs they aren't qualified for, either because they are translating into a language they don't master or because they have no expertise in the subject matter.
In other words, I think anyone who wants to be a translator has to put in a lot of hard work to learn the trade and shouldn't be encouraged to use KudoZ as a way to avoid this hard work. Apparently, the message got out some time ago that, hey! why bother to go through all the effort to learn how to translate when you can have professional translators do the job for you?
[Edited at 2005-08-22 18:15]
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Rafal Piotrowski
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 20:25
Membre (2009)
anglais vers polonais
+ ...
Hello, Kim; it's a pleasure to exchange thoughts
Thx for the compliments; do I really deserve them?...
You wrote: "I don't think many pro translators will often face the scenario you describe" (...)
Very true; not many, not often: But WHAT IF? I have had a situation like that on several occassions, when I was forced to ask more ... See more Hello, Kim; it's a pleasure to exchange thoughts
Thx for the compliments; do I really deserve them?...
You wrote: "I don't think many pro translators will often face the scenario you describe" (...)
Very true; not many, not often: But WHAT IF? I have had a situation like that on several occassions, when I was forced to ask more than 5 questions. When you're supposed to cover, say, 30 pages overnight (which I have done, too), is the probability that you will be helpless in more than 5 spots so remote?...
"and I do believe think your 'exemption basis' proposal is already being considered and will come to pass before long - this is my personal opinion."
Whew, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for that
"But I am a firm supporter of limits for people who have discovered KudoZ as a way to get paid for jobs they aren't qualified for, either because they are translating into a language they don't master or because they have no expertise in the subject matter.
In other words, I think anyone who wants to be a translator has to put in a lot of hard work to learn the trade and shouldn't be encouraged to use KudoZ as a way to avoid this hard work. Apparently, the message got out some time ago that, hey! why bother to go through all the effort to learn how to translate when you can have professional translators do the job for you?"
A thousand times TRUE. However: don't WE OURSELVES have not enough common sense to ignore such individuals? Squash their questions? To be frank, the situation reminds me of such when a boy resorts to his father, complaining: "Daddy, he is BULLYING ME!" Well, quite acceptable in a 6-year old boy, but we're supposed to be responsible adults, for Heaven's sake!
What I'm saying is that limts, IMVHO, may bring about a situation in which the baby is thrown out with the bathwater - it is bound to turn against more than one of us, and very soon (we may forget my 'political' arguments above).
My kindest regards - R.P. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Rafal Piotrowski
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 20:25
Membre (2009)
anglais vers polonais
+ ...
| Another 'on-topic' point | Aug 22, 2005 |
Let's now sit back and analyse ONE SIMPLE THING: WHO was actually complaining about 'lurkers/moochers'?
1) Scenario No. 1: an active answerer receives an 18th question from an obnoxious individual; now, is this asker actually pressing a gun against the answerer's head, THREATENING the latter to kill him/her, if no reply is given? Deleting an unwanted question is as easy as shaking a fly off your collar. Oh, BTW: You may get KudoZ points when you come up with the best answer. Now, is... See more Let's now sit back and analyse ONE SIMPLE THING: WHO was actually complaining about 'lurkers/moochers'?
1) Scenario No. 1: an active answerer receives an 18th question from an obnoxious individual; now, is this asker actually pressing a gun against the answerer's head, THREATENING the latter to kill him/her, if no reply is given? Deleting an unwanted question is as easy as shaking a fly off your collar. Oh, BTW: You may get KudoZ points when you come up with the best answer. Now, is this the complaining type?
2) Scenario No. 2: A 'lurker', having registered, simply and happily deletes ALL posts containing KudoZ questions - end of story. Is this the complaining type?
3) Scenario No. 3: can hardly think of one...
SO, WHO FELT BAD WITH THE OLD SYSTEM? I'd appreciate comments, as to me it seems ridiculous that adult people seek external help in a situation in which they can easily manage on their own.
That's one thing; the other point refers to an argument on 'lack of qualifications to do the job, if you need to ask'. Well, first of all, what was Proz, inter alia, founded for? Secondly, why don't those who raised the argument just throw away all dictionaries? - after all, they must logically be 'qualified', and probably don't need any assisstance. I would like to meet someone like that in person; "if you think that you're omniscent, you must have been misinformed", as an old Chinese proverb has it.
I have, during my Proz tenure, asked several times some 10-15 questions within 24 hrs. As I pointed out above: if you're to cover 30 pages of text, is it so unlikely for your mind to turn blank at more than 5 places?...
Best 2 u @ll,
R.P. ▲ Collapse
| | | | diana bb
Lituanie
Local time: 22:25
anglais vers lituanien
+ ...
| If limits have to be imposed... | Aug 25, 2005 |
[quote]A.Taguiltsev wrote:
Aleksandr Okunev wrote:
[and my value of Kudoz was the spirit which is beginning to fade away;]
Especially the spirit…
KudoZ was good as it was initially created.
It was the KudoZ that spread this very charm or magnetism that everyone got enjoy and afterwards gathered so many members together.
And “…which is beginning to fade away;”
Indeed... maybe I am shortsighted or what, but I do feel a certain nostalgia for the time when I myself discovered ProZ.com. Was it in 2001?
Rules are all right as long as they make sense. In this case, why not look at the issue of the number of questions from a human point of view? Professional or beginner, we all live in a rapidly changing world (a cliche, but correct) where new words and concepts pop up almost every day. I guess many of us have encountered a situation when we accept a translation job - because it's something we specialise in - and, having read the text, realise that it's more than we have expected. Something in the text is considered from a totally unexpected point of view. In a user manual,there are technnical novelties that you haven't heard of. A local historical text with a number of local ancient titles that you couldn't even imagine they existed. Anything. As a professional, you exhaust all known paths in finding a suitable equivalent. As a beginner, you fall into despair. As a professional aware of ProZ.com - whether you are paying member or not - you know that you can ask for clarifications, if not for answers, because you ask your questions when all other paths of search don't yield desired results and you know that here you can get the answer, or if not an answer, then at least something that would lead you along the right path in your further search. For a beginner, who has just discovered ProZ.com, it can be salvation. So why deny it?
What is one question? More often than not, personally for me it's more than enough, because I do not ask many questions. But I imagine myself some 12 years ago - and I see myself only too upset when I know that there are people who could help me - and be willing to do it - and I am only allowed one question.
What are five questions? Nothing much if you find yourself in a situation described by Rafal. But definitely better than one.
As for 15 questions for platinum members... Well. It's not bad. Bearing in mind that these translators make financial contribution to the site. But is Platinum membership an indicator of true professionalism? Of this I am not 100% sure.
As for the abusers of the site - there are some, it's obvious - we have the freedom of choice. There's the 'Squash' button.
So, if the limits have to be imposed, why not make then a tiny bit more human? Like, 5 questions for non-registered members, 10 questions for registered ones, and 15 questions for Platinums?
Regards,
Diana
[Edited at 2005-08-25 01:21]
[Edited at 2005-08-25 01:22]
| | | | KMPrice
Canada
Local time: 12:25
français vers anglais
| Jobs Platinum members & Non-paying members = the same | Aug 25, 2005 |
I don't agree with the 5-question limit being placed on "Jobs Platinum" members like myself.
(see references to "non-platinum" in the two posts below -- these posts really ought to be edited to read "jobs platinum" rather than "non-platinum")
http://www.proz.com/topic/35829
... See more I don't agree with the 5-question limit being placed on "Jobs Platinum" members like myself.
(see references to "non-platinum" in the two posts below -- these posts really ought to be edited to read "jobs platinum" rather than "non-platinum")
http://www.proz.com/topic/35829
http://www.proz.com/post/230481#230481
As I understand the new system:
Non-members: 1 question
Non-paying members: 5 questions
Jobs Platinum: 5 questions
Full Platinum: 15 questions
I wholeheartedly believe in implementing a limit on non-members, and I do understand, from a business viewpoint, the need to differentiate between paying members and non-paying members. But Jobs Platinum members *are* paying members, so why are we being lumped in with non-paying members? (no offense to you ladies & gents).
I also believe that there should be an exception made for those who are limited to 5 but who have made (and continue to make) significant contributions by spending their precious time to assist others by answering their translation questions. Their time is worth money, and I think the system should analyse their Q/A ratio (and quantity) before automatically imposing the limit.
That's my 0.27 cents' worth. ▲ Collapse
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| You're all right! | Sep 8, 2005 |
All of you are so right! We generally need more than 1-5-10-15-etc questions to ask! I thought it would be a good measure but it doesn't seem so nice when you actually come to think about it. Let's go back to the old system!
| | | | Gina W
États-Unis
Local time: 15:25
Membre (2003)
français vers anglais
| This system was created in response to member feedback | Sep 10, 2005 |
AleTolj wrote:
All of you are so right! We generally need more than 1-5-10-15-etc questions to ask! I thought it would be a good measure but it doesn't seem so nice when you actually come to think about it. Let's go back to the old system!
OK, I am a Community Platinum Member now that these limits have been instituted and the Community Platinum membership for KudoZ terminology was made available.
I have been using the site for just basically the past few months, and I use mostly the KudoZ part of the site - though obviously I visit the forums, too.;) I don't much use the Jobs function, I do use the glossary. Anyway, I have seen the member feedback received over the past few months and I can imagine the work the site staff put into instituting this change. I agree with this change. I do think that though in rare occasions a person might be searching for more than 15 terms within a 24-hour period, there is nothing wrong with instituting this limit. I also think the 1-5-15 idea is good, too - why should someone who doesn't bother to register and create a profile be permitted to post more than 1 question? This site is basically for translators to collaborate, and though we welcome guests, we are not a free online dictionary. Many members here have expressed the frustration in feeling that they were taken advantage of in this way - there were times when too many questions were posted, and if you think about it, it's a little surprizing that limits were not there before.
So, the old system wasn't working, the site staff has put a lot of work into instituting this new system - not to mention the fact that they also announced well in advance that there would be these changes effective in August - so it would be a bit ridiculous to go back to the "old system". There are also quite a few new features in this new system, and so although there are obviously bugs and issues to be worked out, overall the site has been improved.
That is my opinion based on my observations and experience on KudoZ.
BTW, I have never had to come close to the 15 questions since I have upgraded. I have, however, exceeded 5 questions. So, rightfully so, I pay for that privilege. I don't do it every day or all the time, but on occasion when needed.
For a person who does not agree with the 15-question limit, then what limit would you suggest? I have to say that although there might be an occasion where I might want to post more than 15 questions, I think that in general 15 is a good number.
| | | | Gina W
États-Unis
Local time: 15:25
Membre (2003)
français vers anglais
| It's the only indicator the site staff has | Sep 10, 2005 |
diana bb wrote:
As for 15 questions for platinum members... Well. It's not bad. Bearing in mind that these translators make financial contribution to the site. But is Platinum membership an indicator of true professionalism? Of this I am not 100% sure.
No, of course not. Platinum membership does not automatically make someone a "better" professional, but as you stated it does indicate a financial contribute to the site. I am sure that those site staff who participated in this upgrade would appreciate reaping the benefits of the fruits of their efforts. Also, what WOULD be the indicator of true professionalism, and how would you suggest that it be implemented on the site? It would seem to me that a system that would fully and comprehensively "test" each person would incur quite a lot of work for the site staff and as a result I would think that membership costs would then rise. Raising the rates might discourage less people to use the site, or at least less people to PAY for using the site.
So I think that it's ok for the site staff to use this as an indicator of who has or does not have the right to ask up to 15 questions in a 24-hour period.
| | | | | Feedback sought on limits in practice | Sep 12, 2005 |
As promised, we have called for feedback on limits, now that they have been in practice. All are invited to post short opinions (one per member, please!)
http://www.proz.com/topic/36651
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Odette Grille (X)
Canada
Local time: 15:25
anglais vers français
+ ...
| So the control freaks win again ! | Oct 4, 2005 |
I am appalled at the applause on this stupid restriction.
If people ask questions which are a click away in the glossaries, why not have a function that detects them and redirects the question (or moderators who do it)
Any professional translator knows you may have ten questions one day and none for weeks, depending on the topic.
Also, this will scare away all our little friends who did their homework with us. What a pity.
This site is becomi... See more I am appalled at the applause on this stupid restriction.
If people ask questions which are a click away in the glossaries, why not have a function that detects them and redirects the question (or moderators who do it)
Any professional translator knows you may have ten questions one day and none for weeks, depending on the topic.
Also, this will scare away all our little friends who did their homework with us. What a pity.
This site is becoming less and less users friendly.
I think more efforts should have been put into protecting the translators from crooks (the non-payers) and not from ignorant people tyrying to better their knowledge.
Though I have found that the site is not very helpful on a professional level (finding PAID work and answers to really difficult questions)
I enjoyed answering questions on my free time. There were never enough. I guess there will be even less now.
This change makes me really sad.
[Edited at 2005-10-04 16:25] ▲ Collapse
| | | | df49f (X)
France
Local time: 21:25
| crooks = non-payers??? | Oct 4, 2005 |
Odette Grille wrote:
I think more efforts should have been put into protecting the translators from crooks (the non-payers) and not from ignorant people tyrying to better their knowledge.
I'm one of the non-paying "crooks"... with over 1300 points, only 8 questions and many more answers within one year... and not so sure I appreciate being called a crook..
Any professional translator knows you may have ten questions one day and none for weeks, depending on the topic.
Absolutely true: any professional translator may indeed have ten questions and will most likely have even more in one day, but NO professional translator would/should rely on Kudoz to answer 5 or 10 or 15 of these questions... and particularly not the kind of basic questions asked by many "professional Platinum non-crook paying" members...
On the "questions from our little friends" issue, I tend to be on your side as I much preferred answering the "I love you" type of questions from self-admitted non-pros and kids and students, than the same type posted by self-proclaimed pros (crooks or not:-)) - being a pro means and requires that we find our own answers and not expect anyone on Kudoz or elsewhere to do the job for us - and that' why I agree 100% with this restriction (even though as a crook, I'm only allowed 5, which I don't need anyway!).
regards - df
| | | | Nikki Graham
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 20:25
espagnol vers anglais
| More professionalism | Oct 5, 2005 |
Odette Grille wrote:
If people ask questions which are a click away in the glossaries, why not have a function that detects them and redirects the question
There is, although I have still seen questions asked that are in the glossary.
Any professional translator knows you may have ten questions one day and none for weeks, depending on the topic.
IMHO, any translator who needs to ask ten or more questions a day is out of their depth and therefore not demonstrating very much professionalism in taking on a job that is proving too difficult for them.
Also, this will scare away all our little friends who did their homework with us. What a pity.
As an ex-teacher, I believe students should do their homework themselves (that is, after all, how you learn best) and am glad that we are no longer inundated with questions that have no place on a professional translation site.
I think more efforts should have been put into protecting the translators from crooks (the non-payers) and not from ignorant people tyrying to better their knowledge.
I am sure df49f has misunderstood you here and that you mean clients who do not pay rather than non-paying proz members.
Though I have found that the site is not very helpful on a professional level (finding PAID work and answers to really difficult questions)
That is precisely why these limits have been introduced, to make Kudoz more professional, so that in future you will find an answer to really difficult questions. This should hopefully increase the standards of the site in general and lead to more and better job offers.
| | | | | Pages sur ce sujet: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Limits have been instituted on the number of questions one can ask in 24 hours | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 | Translation Office 3000
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