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Aug 7, 2019 20:29
4 yrs ago
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French term

a priori (as it relates to costs)

French to English Law/Patents Law (general)
Hello, I am translating a contract and am not quite sure what "a priori" means in this context:

"Enfin, XXXXXX va demander à YYYY de payer la location d’une unité de fabrication de résine, avec les coûts associés (a priori la maintenance)."

I'm not quite sure on the relationship between maintenance and associated costs.

Like is the translation something like "YYY will pay... the associated costs (such as maintenance)"
or "...associated costs (including, in principle, maintenance)",
or is it something like "...associated costs (i.e. maintenance)"?


Thanks for any help you can provide
Proposed translations (English)
4 -1 associated costs (presumably the maintenance costs)
4 +2 first and foremost
4 +1 ...including the attendant costs (maintenance probably)

Discussion

Nikki Scott-Despaigne Aug 12, 2019:
On "a priori" in ordinary and legal English In "ordinary" UK English, "a priori" does have the same meaning, the main difference being that it is used so much more in ordinary French than in ordinary English. In legal English, "a priori" can describe deductive reasoning (cause and effect) but, when it boils down to it, that is the same as the ordinary meaning anyway: a conclusion based on information that has not been fully substantiated, but that is logical, based on the information available. https://definitions.uslegal.com/a/a-priori/
nonaga (asker) Aug 11, 2019:
hi everyone, thank you so much for all your thoughts and suggestions. I learned alot from all of you. I apologize because there was a typo, this was from notes on a discussion on a contract, not a contract itself, sorry was rushing!
Based on your comments and based on my own further research, in my opinion I think "presumably, the maintenance costs" as Dario suggests is the translation that is closest to the meaning and the most elegant. "Probably" as Francois also is correct. I am sorry I dont think "first and foremost" generally corresponds to the French usage of "a priori", as I think the French meaning does not refer to indicating a prioritization of a list of things (nor the English), and even just looking at the English itself, it would not make sense and is not good writing, at least in American English. Leaving it as "a priori" in the English also would not make sense in English, and would be incorrect as the french usage of "a priori" is different than the English usage. I am a lawyer and I know different countries use the same Latin phrase differently. I think this is true regardless of this is a contract, or not a contract. Thank you so much everyone!
Daryo Aug 8, 2019:
Exactly! Also I would be extremely interested to see one single valid reference of "a priori" being used to mean "the most important" in some real document where some serious real money is at stake - [risk-free guessing based on misinterpreting the etymology of a term excluded ...]
Ph_B (X) Aug 8, 2019:
Not a legal text, no legal translation required The sentence that is shown to us clearly does not belong to a legal text, whatever its authors, or indeed nonaga, believe because this is simply not a legal text (va demander? In a contract? Seriously?). Giving a priori a legal meaning (whatever that may be, but I'm happy to trust Adrian in his answer to B D) would be a mistranslation. The whole sentence reads almost like a running commentary on something that's happening: "and he said this and he'll do that", that kind of register. And with that register, a priori simply means in everyday French: "I believe this is likely but am not entirely certain of it". That is the meaning here and I agree with Francois's and Daryo's answers - they may not be fit for a contract, but the point is that the source document is not a (properly-drafted) contract and its register must be reflected in the translation. B D suggests to leave "a priori" in English. Why not, if it has that meaning too?
Daryo Aug 8, 2019:
This is not a contract unless drafted by some total amateur.

Even the [in]famous contract that took the T&Cs of some pizza delivery service to make the T&Cs of a transport company that was supposed to ease the pains of Brexit [while not having a single vehicle/ship] must have sounded more "contracty".

just in case anyone is wondering what was all this about:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/03/brexit-frei...

***These are discussions about a possible contract, so unsurprisingly they are rather informal and hypothetical. Fits perfectly in a context of "negotiating a contract"***

Quacks like a duck walks like a duck ...?

Or to put it in a different way: it's not about the ready-to-serve meal (a ready-to-sign contract), it's about what's going on in the kitchen.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Aug 8, 2019:
nonaga @Asker: I like your brief suggestion of "i.e." which is a natural and efficient solution, whatever the register.

We can only go on what has been provided thus far. In my view, that context is enough to say that "a priori" has it's ordinary meaning here, as it would in a formal context also. I agree with the basic meaning of "presumably", to be adapted for a better fit depending on the general register of the language.

@Daryo, the language is not very formal, I agree, but we can only rely on what has been provided and if that is the language used in the contract, so be it.
@Adrien. Your suggestion is a good one too, although maybe a little formal for the register here.
Daryo Aug 8, 2019:
I don't think this text is the contract itself but a discussion / preparation of the negotiating position.

You wouldn't have in a finalised contract anything resembling

"... les coûts associés (a priori la maintenance)"

which is basically [more or less educated] guesswork, trying to predict what the other side is going to ask.

AFAIK, that's not how contracts work - you put in a contract what was mutually agreed (unless it's force-fed to the other party in a "form contract") NOT suppositions. If you do any "suppositions/guesswork", it would be while negotiating a contract, trying to predict other side's reactions.

Asker might well say "I am translating a contract", all I can see in this sentence is "preparing to negotiate a contract" - (I have been involved in enough of them to spot the difference immediately ...)

OTOH, if you are willing to see this as some rather unorthodox "finalised contract" then you sure thing you would be tempted to force-fed "priority=greater importance" as some creative new meaning to "a priori".
Ph_B (X) Aug 8, 2019:
nonaga, va demander really shouldn't be used in a contract. It looks as if your "contract" has been drafted without much regard for legal/contractual style. If so, a priori should be understood as used in everyday language: vraisemblablement, i.e. "probably/very likely".

Proposed translations

-1
1 hr
French term (edited): les coûts associés (a priori la maintenance)
Selected

associated costs (presumably the maintenance costs)

Here "a priori" has a meaning derived from it's "usual/normal" meaning i.e. "before the event / previously & similar"

what they mean is "BEFORE we know what this costs are exactly, we can reasonably assume that it's about maintenance costs"

in this use of "a priori" there is NO implied connotation of "priority/importance" whatsoever, it's about "what it would it expected to be"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2019-08-07 22:28:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

in fact, you could also simply leave "a priori", depending on the target audience.

a priori
A priori literally means "from before." If you know how many red, white, and blue gum balls are in the gum ball machine, this a priori knowledge can help you predict the color of the next ones to be dispensed.

In Latin a priori means “what comes first.” A priori understandings are the assumptions that come before the rest of the assessment, argument, or analysis. If you are making an argument that pre-school children who are read to at home by family members come to school better prepared to learn, the a priori understanding is that children learn by hearing before they are able to read.

Thesaurus
Definitions of
a priori
1
adj involving deductive reasoning from a general principle to a necessary effect; not supported by fact
“an a priori judgment”

Synonyms:
analytic, analytical
of a proposition that is necessarily true independent of fact or experience
deductive
involving inferences from general principles
Antonyms:
a posteriori
involving reasoning from facts or particulars to general principles or from effects to causes
show more antonyms...

adj based on hypothesis or theory rather than experiment
Synonyms:
theoretic, theoretical
concerned primarily with theories or hypotheses rather than practical considerations

adv derived by logic, without observed facts

Antonyms:
a posteriori
derived from observed facts

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/a priori


also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_priori_and_a_posteriori

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2019-08-07 22:33:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"what it would be expected to be"


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2019-08-07 22:43:09 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Enfin, XXX va demander à YYY de payer la location d’une unité de fabrication de résine, avec les coûts associés (a priori la maintenance)."
=
... will ask YYY to pay the rent/lease(?) for ..., including the related / associated costs (which could be expected to be / which would be most likely the costs of maintenance)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 hrs (2019-08-08 08:52:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

short version:

the only kind "priority" that is implied in "a priori" is the "priority" on a timeline (same as in "prior art" when talking of patents)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 hrs (2019-08-08 08:53:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

the only kind of "priority" ...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2019-08-12 15:24:14 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

more "... what these costs are ..."
Note from asker:
Thank you so much Daryo! I found all your explanations very helpful. Thank you also Adrian and BD. I agree "presumably" is not a great term to use in a contract. Sorry it was my mistake that I typed this was from a "contract", it was from "notes on discussion on a contract".
Peer comment(s):
agree Ph_B (X) : with "presumably". There's an element of uncertainty in a priori - although "presumably" is just as odd as a priori in a (so-called) contract./Agreed.
8 hrs
agree it wouldn't have its place in a properly drafted contract/ This sounds more like a discussion with some adviser or a partner about how the negotiation of the contract might turn. Merci!
disagree Adrian MM. : That construction is not within acceptable paramaters of the term.// Legalistically, a priori - first of all - stands in contradistinction to a posteriori - after the event. That is the way it is described in every legal Latin dictionary
9 hrs
it might not be "within acceptable parameters" of what you expect if you see a ghost of "priority=greater importance" in a priori, but no FR dictionary / encyclopedia noticed THAT meaning ...
disagree B D Finch : Not the correct meaning in a legal context and vague terms such as "presumably" should not be used when drafting the terms of a contract.
11 hrs
Whatever Asker says, this is NOT the wording of a contract ***101% sure of that***. You are twisting the meaning of a term trying to make it fit in a presumed/misinterpreted context. Not my method.
disagree GILLES MEUNIER : Encore une réponse savante...
6 days
et la machine se retrouve complètement désorientée ... ? Vraiment désolé ... Or it's maybe high time to junk your MT?
agree Germaine : http://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2guides/guides/juridi/in...
6 days
Merci!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "thank you!"
+2
1 hr

first and foremost

- also retains the flavo(u)r of the original Latin meaning.

Note the spelling of foremost, not to be confused with the Fourmost, a Merseybeat group or 'band' of the early Swinging Sixties.
Reference:

http://french-to-english/business-commerce-general/990746-a-priori.html

Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M
5 mins
Merci and thanks.
disagree Daryo : you are repeating the same misinterpretation as in https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/business-commer... NOTHING to do with "priority=more important" it's simply "priority" in time before s.t. happens/is known
39 mins
It means pre-eminently. Compare with 'notamment' - not notably, but including. // Legalistically, in every legal Latin dictionary, a priori - first of all - stands in contradistinction to a posteriori - after the event.
agree B D Finch : Why not just keep it as "a priori"?
12 hrs
OK - 'when in doubt. translate literally' was the byword of my City law firm Paris & Madrid. The only problem is that, in ENG. law, a priori is a line of reasoning: 'from cause to effect; from previous assumptions': L.B. Curzon, dictionary of (ENG) law.
agree AllegroTrans : I would keep it as "a priori"
16 hrs
Thanks. That's one way-out (cop-out?).
agree Lara Barnett
1 day 17 hrs
Thanks, merci and grazie!
disagree Germaine : = d'abord et avant tout. Rien à voir avec "a priori". Vous confondez avec "Primo", "ab initio" ou alors - en forçant beaucoup - avec "a fortiori"
6 days
The question has now closed. So all that can be done 'a posteriori' is - as I had advised Daryo - to double-check the meaning of a priori in every legal Latin dictionary going.
Something went wrong...
+1
1 hr

...including the attendant costs (maintenance probably)

A priorii here means a conjecture as to the unavoidable attendant costs.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Daryo : that's roughly the idea, but why do you need to talk of anything "unavoidable" to explain this use of "a priori" ??? There is nothing "unavoidable" in YYY being asked to pay not only the lease, but also some other costs, and is unrelated to "a priori" ...
12 mins
a conjecture as to the unavoidable attendant costs.
agree Ph_B (X) : with "probably". There's an element of uncertainty in a priori - although "probably" is just as odd as a priori in a (so-called) contract.
9 hrs
thanks!
neutral Tony M : Although this is along the right lines, it would not fit at all well in the context/register of a contract
11 hrs
Something went wrong...
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