Aug 22, 2020 08:28
3 yrs ago
26 viewers *
français term
mesures à caractère réel
français vers anglais
Droit / Brevets
Droit : contrat(s)
Promesse de vente
"I - Sanctions pénales
L’exécution de travaux sans respecter les obligations d’urbanisme (article L. 480-4 du Code de l’urbanisme) est un délit qui se prescrit dans un délai de 3 ans à compter de l’achèvement des travaux à la condition qu’aucun élément ne soit venu interrompre la prescription (comme un procès-verbal d’infraction).
Etant précisé que le nouveau délai de prescription est désormais de 6 ans depuis le 1er mars 2017, pour les infractions non encore prescrites.
En cas de condamnation, le Tribunal peut ordonner des mesures de restitution (condamnation à démolir ou à mettre en conformité), mesures à caractère réel qui se prescrivent par 30 ans."
related expression:
"b) Le constructeur ne pourra être condamné à des dommages et intérêts que si préalablement le permis a été soit annulé pour excès de pouvoir, soit déclaré illégal par la juridiction administrative.
L’action en responsabilité civile doit être engagée dans le délai de 2 ans après l’achèvement des travaux.
En outre, la violation d’une règle de droit privé (servitude, dispositions du cahier des charges d’un lotissement ou encore d’un règlement de copropriété) se prescrit par 10 ans ou 30 ans en fonction du caractère réel ou personnel de l'action intentée."
I assume this is "real" in the sense of "property-related". Wondering how this might be put in good legalese.
"I - Sanctions pénales
L’exécution de travaux sans respecter les obligations d’urbanisme (article L. 480-4 du Code de l’urbanisme) est un délit qui se prescrit dans un délai de 3 ans à compter de l’achèvement des travaux à la condition qu’aucun élément ne soit venu interrompre la prescription (comme un procès-verbal d’infraction).
Etant précisé que le nouveau délai de prescription est désormais de 6 ans depuis le 1er mars 2017, pour les infractions non encore prescrites.
En cas de condamnation, le Tribunal peut ordonner des mesures de restitution (condamnation à démolir ou à mettre en conformité), mesures à caractère réel qui se prescrivent par 30 ans."
related expression:
"b) Le constructeur ne pourra être condamné à des dommages et intérêts que si préalablement le permis a été soit annulé pour excès de pouvoir, soit déclaré illégal par la juridiction administrative.
L’action en responsabilité civile doit être engagée dans le délai de 2 ans après l’achèvement des travaux.
En outre, la violation d’une règle de droit privé (servitude, dispositions du cahier des charges d’un lotissement ou encore d’un règlement de copropriété) se prescrit par 10 ans ou 30 ans en fonction du caractère réel ou personnel de l'action intentée."
I assume this is "real" in the sense of "property-related". Wondering how this might be put in good legalese.
Proposed translations
(anglais)
| 4 +1 | land and property-related orders |
AllegroTrans
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| 4 -1 | in rem measures |
Eliza Hall
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| 3 -2 | Real property proceedings |
Felipe Jensen
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Proposed translations
+1
3 heures
AllegroTrans
Royaume-Uni
Royaume-Uni
Native in anglais
Specializes in field
Royaume-Uni
Sensible solutions
Native in: anglais (Variant: Wessexois) 
Works in: français vers anglais, anglais, anglais vers français
Related KudoZ points
:
527
Selected
land and property-related orders
I think these are the orders that a Court can impose rather than the proceedings themselves
You could say "real-estate related" for US/International English
Mesures à caractère réel
Chambre criminelle, 20 mars 2001 (Bull. n° 73)
La mise en conformité des lieux ou des ouvrages, la démolition de ces derniers ou la réaffectation du sol, prévues par l’article L. 480-5 du Code de l’urbanisme, constituent des mesures à caractère réel destinées à faire cesser une situation illicite, et non des sanctions pénales. Elles ne peuvent être prononcées à titre de peine principale.
https://www.courdecassation.fr/publications_26/rapport_annue...
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Note added at 12 hrs (2020-08-22 21:23:34 GMT)
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planning enforcement order enables an authority to take action in relation to an apparent breach of planning control notwithstanding that the time limits may have expired.
Enforcement and post-permission matters - GOV.UK
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Note added at 13 hrs (2020-08-22 22:08:37 GMT)
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Afterthought: land and property-related orders and notices (to incorporate e.g. enforcement notices
You could say "real-estate related" for US/International English
Mesures à caractère réel
Chambre criminelle, 20 mars 2001 (Bull. n° 73)
La mise en conformité des lieux ou des ouvrages, la démolition de ces derniers ou la réaffectation du sol, prévues par l’article L. 480-5 du Code de l’urbanisme, constituent des mesures à caractère réel destinées à faire cesser une situation illicite, et non des sanctions pénales. Elles ne peuvent être prononcées à titre de peine principale.
https://www.courdecassation.fr/publications_26/rapport_annue...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 hrs (2020-08-22 21:23:34 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
planning enforcement order enables an authority to take action in relation to an apparent breach of planning control notwithstanding that the time limits may have expired.
Enforcement and post-permission matters - GOV.UK
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 hrs (2020-08-22 22:08:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Afterthought: land and property-related orders and notices (to incorporate e.g. enforcement notices
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
B D Finch
2 heures
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thanks
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| neutral |
Eliza Hall
: Property-related is true but not clear enough/not the EN legal term used for this distinction. See my reference and answer.
3 heures
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perfectly clear, ask any Planning Officer or conveyancing solicitor, licensed conveyancer or legal exceutive
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| agree |
SafeTex
: Yes, the French term has nothing directly to do with "in rem". They are very different things.
6 heures
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thanks, but if we really have to Latinise then maybe "et quae ad ordines notitiam de terra et aedificia" ..... which would neatly avoid the contentious "in rem"
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| disagree |
Daryo
: how would that fit in this occurrence in this same ST: "en fonction du caractère réel ou personnel de l'action intentée" ???
2 jours 23 heures
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because it concerns orders relating to land and property
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "thanks"
-2
1 heure
Felipe Jensen
Brésil
Brésil
Brésil
Academic background/In-house experience
Native in: portugais (Variant: Brazilian)
Works in: anglais vers portugais, portugais vers anglais, allemand vers portugais, and 2 more.
Real property proceedings
I did some research and it does seem related to property. I found some articles and pages that mention "real property proceedings". However, as it is not my specialty field, I'll wait for the feedback from our peers.
Example sentence:
"we advise commercial and residential clients in all types of real property proceedings and transactions in [...
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
B D Finch
: These are orders, not proceedings.
4 heures
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| disagree |
Eliza Hall
: What BD Finch said. Also, everything in the text is about real property/land use--that's not the distinction "réel" is making here. See my reference below.
5 heures
|
-1
7 heures
Eliza Hall
États-Unis
États-Unis
Native in anglais
Specializes in field
États-Unis
Lawyer-Translator-Certified Interpreter
Native in: anglais (Variants: British, UK, US, Scottish, Canadian, Irish)
Works in: français vers anglais, anglais vers français
Related KudoZ points
:
60
in rem measures
In EN law we use the Latin terms for different types of legal actions and remedies: in rem (actions against things/property) and in personam (actions against people): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_personam
In FR they use caractère réel and caractère personnel for the same thing:
https://justice.ooreka.fr/astuce/voir/671877/action-personne...
For instance, if a court orders a building to be torn down because it's not compliant with building codes, that's in rem. If a court orders the landowner to pay a fine because he had a building constructed that violated building codes, that's in personam. In rem/réel means about a THING (Latin: "res"), not just about real property -- if a court ordered a car to be destroyed, or a crate of cocaine confiscated from a drug smuggler, that would also be in rem.
The distinctions matter for various reasons: for instance, there might be different rules for serving notice (maybe you can post notice on a house that's condemned, whereas you would have to personally serve the landowner for an in personam action). Or as in Mpoma's text, the different types of legal actions might have different statutes of limitation.
Every text I've seen uses "mesures à caractère réel" to describe measures taken, or measures that a judge orders someone to take, in order to correct an existing violation of the law with respect to a certain property ("mesure à caractère réel destinée à faire cesser la situation illicite," or mesures, plural, will bring up a lot of examples if you look).
In other words, if XYZ property violates the law, and the court orders XYZ property to be destroyed (or brought into compliance, e.g., "structures that tall aren't allowed here so you have to demolish the top floor and lower the roofline"), the court has ordered mesures à caractère réel.
That type of order is distinguished from sanctions pénales, which are orders that the court issues for the purpose of punishing the person who has broken the law.
For instance, if you fine a landowner $X as punishment for building a house that doesn't comply with land-use regulations, that's a sanction pénale (and it is of caractère personnel, because it's punishing the person who owns the property). If you also order the landowner to have the house either torn down or rebuilt in compliance with the law, that is a mesure à caractère réel/. It's not to punish him, it's to ensure that the property stops being illegal.
In FR they use caractère réel and caractère personnel for the same thing:
https://justice.ooreka.fr/astuce/voir/671877/action-personne...
For instance, if a court orders a building to be torn down because it's not compliant with building codes, that's in rem. If a court orders the landowner to pay a fine because he had a building constructed that violated building codes, that's in personam. In rem/réel means about a THING (Latin: "res"), not just about real property -- if a court ordered a car to be destroyed, or a crate of cocaine confiscated from a drug smuggler, that would also be in rem.
The distinctions matter for various reasons: for instance, there might be different rules for serving notice (maybe you can post notice on a house that's condemned, whereas you would have to personally serve the landowner for an in personam action). Or as in Mpoma's text, the different types of legal actions might have different statutes of limitation.
Every text I've seen uses "mesures à caractère réel" to describe measures taken, or measures that a judge orders someone to take, in order to correct an existing violation of the law with respect to a certain property ("mesure à caractère réel destinée à faire cesser la situation illicite," or mesures, plural, will bring up a lot of examples if you look).
In other words, if XYZ property violates the law, and the court orders XYZ property to be destroyed (or brought into compliance, e.g., "structures that tall aren't allowed here so you have to demolish the top floor and lower the roofline"), the court has ordered mesures à caractère réel.
That type of order is distinguished from sanctions pénales, which are orders that the court issues for the purpose of punishing the person who has broken the law.
For instance, if you fine a landowner $X as punishment for building a house that doesn't comply with land-use regulations, that's a sanction pénale (and it is of caractère personnel, because it's punishing the person who owns the property). If you also order the landowner to have the house either torn down or rebuilt in compliance with the law, that is a mesure à caractère réel/. It's not to punish him, it's to ensure that the property stops being illegal.
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
AllegroTrans
: This is not the term used and 'measures' is a false friend. Pls see my DBox comment
4 heures
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It's not the term used by planning authorities--but it is the term used by courts and by lawyers discussing these issues. "Mesures" can't always be translated as "measures," but in this case it can.
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| disagree |
SafeTex
: How can a contract be "in rem" and not "in personam" plus other points i've raised in the discussion
16 heures
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A contract can't be in rem. Your question and comments show that unfortunately you just haven't understood what in rem means.
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| agree |
Daryo
: "en fonction du caractère réel ou personnel de l'action intentée" => it's clearly about the distinction between in rem (actions against things/property) and in personam (actions against people)// can't see what is wrong with using Latin.
2 jours 19 heures
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Thanks. You've hit the nail on the head here and in your discussion post. And any US/UK lawyer would agree with you that there's nothing wrong with using Latin in a legal text :)
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Reference comments
7 heures
Eliza Hall
États-Unis
États-Unis
Native in anglais
Specializes in field
États-Unis
Lawyer-Translator-Certified Interpreter
Native in: anglais (Variants: British, UK, US, Scottish, Canadian, Irish)
Works in: français vers anglais, anglais vers français
Related KudoZ points
:
60
Reference:
They're distinguished from penal sanctions
"Mesures à caractère réel
Chambre criminelle, 20 mars 2001 (Bull. n° 73)
La mise en conformité des lieux ou des ouvrages, la démolition de ces derniers ou la réaffectation du sol, prévues par l’article L. 480-5 du Code de l’urbanisme, constituent des mesures à caractère réel destinées à faire cesser une situation illicite, et non des sanctions pénales. Elles ne peuvent être prononcées à titre de peine principale."
https://www.courdecassation.fr/publications_26/rapport_annue...
In other words, orders to fix the problem (such as by demolishing the noncompliant structure and rebuilding it in a way that complies with land-use regulations) are not penal sanctions--they're not punitive--they're just done to fix the underlying problem.
Lawyers care about these distinctions (whether something counts as a punishment or not, etc.) for various reasons. I don't know why French law cares about this particular distinction, but it could be something along the lines of this:
A court ordered a landowner to demolish a building that didn't comply with land-use regulations. The landlowner's lawyer argued, "You can't order me to do that, because the regulation I violated does not allow for penal sanctions." (Laws and regulations often set forth what penalties or remedies can and cannot be imposed when they're broken.) The court the concluded, "Ordering you to stop breaking the law isn't a penal sanction, it's just a mesure à caractère réel, so yes, we absolutely can order you to demolish the building."
Chambre criminelle, 20 mars 2001 (Bull. n° 73)
La mise en conformité des lieux ou des ouvrages, la démolition de ces derniers ou la réaffectation du sol, prévues par l’article L. 480-5 du Code de l’urbanisme, constituent des mesures à caractère réel destinées à faire cesser une situation illicite, et non des sanctions pénales. Elles ne peuvent être prononcées à titre de peine principale."
https://www.courdecassation.fr/publications_26/rapport_annue...
In other words, orders to fix the problem (such as by demolishing the noncompliant structure and rebuilding it in a way that complies with land-use regulations) are not penal sanctions--they're not punitive--they're just done to fix the underlying problem.
Lawyers care about these distinctions (whether something counts as a punishment or not, etc.) for various reasons. I don't know why French law cares about this particular distinction, but it could be something along the lines of this:
A court ordered a landowner to demolish a building that didn't comply with land-use regulations. The landlowner's lawyer argued, "You can't order me to do that, because the regulation I violated does not allow for penal sanctions." (Laws and regulations often set forth what penalties or remedies can and cannot be imposed when they're broken.) The court the concluded, "Ordering you to stop breaking the law isn't a penal sanction, it's just a mesure à caractère réel, so yes, we absolutely can order you to demolish the building."
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: This is all well and good but terms such as "penal sanctions" and "in rem measures" sound like translationese and not the admin/legal terms used in practice +you yourself say 'we can order you to demolish the building, so surely that's an order
5 heures
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Discussion
SafeTex, thanks for the interesting but irrelevant link to the 1957 Housing Act. However:
1. It says "the local authority MAY serve upon the owner," not that they MUST. If it were in personam, the word would be "must."
2. That Act concerns what we in the US would call "eminent domain": the government taking a perfectly lawful structure from its owner in order to demolish it and build something else there. To do that, the government normally has to compensate the owner (if the owner can be found). See section 74(1) at your link: an owner served with such notice "may make to the local authority an offer for the sale" of their interest in the property, so that the government can acquire and demolish it.
That's a totally different situation than what we're talking about (orders to demolish illegal and/or dangerous properties). In the latter case, the government doesn't need to buy the property or otherwise get title from the owner. The owner is irrelevant; the government can demolish the building just because it's illegal.
shows clearly and unambiguously that it's about the distinction between "in rem" / "in personam", and whatever else is in the ST won't change that (a whole forest available to distract you from seeing the right tree ...)
That's what's in the ST and that needs to be translated without distortion of meaning introduced to accommodate the "usage" in the target language.
All you need regarding "caractère réel ou personnel [de l'action intentée]" - anything else is just distraction:
https://thelawdictionary.org/in-personam-in-rem/
Here is an extract of the UK Housing Act 1957
"Power of local authority to order demolition of obstructive building
(1)The local authority may serve upon the owner or owners of a building which appears to the authority to be an obstructive building notice of the time (being some time not less than twenty-one days after the service of the notice) and place at which the question of ordering the building to be demolished will be considered by the authority; and the owner or owners shall be entitled to be heard when the matter is so taken into consideration.
Source: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1957/56/part/III/crossh...
So once again, you have translated a French term with something completely different and you cannot know in advance that any such order in the future is "in rem" rather than "in personam"
It's so simple !
Please don't take this the wrong way, but are you joking?
I ask because it seems VERY hard to read the links and discussion and still fail to understand what an in rem order is, or that an order for property to be demolished is an in rem order.
If you don't want to read French links, feel free to look up how condemnation orders work in any EN-speaking jurisdiction. Courts can order properties to be demolished without even knowing who the owner is, and with or without serving him, precisely because a condemnation order isn't an order against a person (in personam); it's an order against property (in rem).
It's done that way (in rem) so that courts don't need to find or serve the owner before they can order dangerous or illegal property to be destroyed, and don't need him to arrange for the demolition.
A link (note the text right before footnote 968): https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/amendment-14/...
But you have no evidence that "mésures à caractère réel" = "in rem" . Even if the court issued such a decision, where is your proof that they would be issued against the property (in rem) and not the owner (in personam) ?
You are translating a very clear French phrase with something completely different.
FR: "En cas de condamnation, le Tribunal peut ordonner des mesures de restitution (condamnation à démolir ou à mettre en conformité), mesures à caractère réel qui se prescrivent par 30 ans."
EN: "In the event of condemnation, the Court may order restitution measures (tear-down order or order to bring into conformity), in rem measures that are subject to a 30-year limitations period."
You wrote: this is not a court order but a contract... so if there is breach of contract, how could the following proceedings be in rem?
They couldn't. That is not what this is about. This part of the contract isn't about breach; it spells out that, completely independently of this contract, a court could order condemnation of the property, and could do so at any point in the next 30 years because condemnation is an in rem measure with its own statute of limitations (much longer than the limitations period of a contract breach).
Contracts sometimes spell out that problems X, Y or Z could happen, to ensure that neither party can claim it didn't know.
Firstly, the French expression to translate is "mésures à caractère réel" which has very little to do with "in rem"
Secondly, this is not a court order but a contract between two parties so if there is breach of contract, how could the following proceedings be "in rem"?
The history of "in rem" and how it is used is explained in Wiki
A right in rem or a judgment in rem binds the world as opposed to rights and judgments inter partes which only bind those involved in their creation.
Originally, the notion of in rem jurisdiction arose in situations in which property was identified but the owner was unknown. Courts fell into the practice of styling a case not as "John Doe, Unknown owner of (Property)", but as just "Ex Parte (property)" or perhaps the awkward "State v. (Property)", usually followed by a notice by publication seeking claimants to title to the property;[citation needed] see examples below. This last style is awkward because in law, only a person may be a party to a judicial proceeding – ...
It is impossible to imagine therefore how this contract could be applied in law as an "in rem" case where we have two named parties.
And the jurisdiction of a court isn't the same thing as a measure ordered by the court. Right?
Ok. That should clarify why your post about "in rem jurisdiction" is completely off base.
In rem jurisdiction: Jurisdiction over a thing (courts in France have jurisdiction over real estate located in France; courts in Ohio don't).
In rem orders/in rem nature of a proceeding: Court orders concerning a thing ("tear down Building XYZ") or proceedings against things (a suit seeking an order that Building XYZ be torn down).
In personam jurisdiction: Jurisdiction over a person (courts in France have jurisdiction over most people residing in France and some French people residing abroad; courts in Ohio don't, except for French people who live in Ohio or who did something that satisfies Ohio's jurisdictional rules).
In personam orders/in personam nature of a proceeding: Court orders concerning a specific person ("Mr. X shall pay a $Y fine") or proceedings against people (a suit seeking an order that Mr. X pay $Y).
It's clearly NOT "in rem"
in rem jurisdiction ("power about or against 'the thing'"[1]) is a legal term describing the power a court may exercise over property (either real or personal) or a "status" against a person over whom the court does not have in personam jurisdiction. Jurisdiction in rem assumes the property or status is the primary object of the action, rather than personal liabilities not necessarily associated with the property.
which is light years away from "mésures à caractère réel"
La mise en conformité des lieux ou des ouvrages, la démolition de ces derniers ou la réaffectation du sol, prévues par l'article L. 480-5 du Code de l'urbanisme, constituent des mesures à caractère réel destinées à faire cesser une situation illicite, et non des sanctions pénales.
Furthermore, I'm dubious that "in rem" is the right answer as, in our text, we have a person (the constructor) suggesting that the text is in personam. I doubt a contract between two parties, which is what we have, could ever be "in rem"
"le Tribunal peut ordonner des mesures de restitution... mesures à caractère réel qui se prescrivent par 30 ans" = "the Court may order restitution measures... in rem measures which are subject to a 30-year statute of limitations."
"la violation d’une règle de droit privé.. se prescrit par 10 ans ou 30 ans en fonction du caractère réel ou personnel de l'action intentée." = "the violation of a rule of private law... is subject to a limitations period of 10 or 30 years depending on whether the action brought was in rem or in personam."
For the latter, if for some reason you really wanted to stick closely to the FR text instead of writing it as we would in EN, it could say, "...years depending on the in rem or in personam nature of the action brought."
For the option of saying "limitations period" rather than "statute of limitations": https://www.americanbar.org/groups/litigation/committees/con...
If you want to use "orders" for "mesures," then you would say "issuing orders":
"orders are issued on each Monday that the Court sits": https://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/ordersofthecourt/19
"Any court in the state... can review a petition and issue a Protective Order": https://www.phoenix.gov/court/protection-orders
In response to the pandemic, courts "have issued orders relating to court business, operating status, and public and employee safety": https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/court-website-...
But you can say "ordering measures." Compare these 2 official UN documents:
"avoir recours aux tribunaux pour leur demander d’ordonner des mesures de protection" = "appealed to the courts to seek protection measures":
FR: https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N09/400/19/PDF...
EN: https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N09/400/18/PDF...
They are not called 'measures' and I have never seen them labelled 'in rem'. Take a look at these links:
https://www.reigate-banstead.gov.uk/info/20043/planning/99/p...
https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200187/your_responsibi...
https://www.french-property.com/guides/france/building/plann...
'In rem' isn't used by any Local Authority for this purpose; believe me I know because I have carried out 100s of planning enforcement searches in England.
Right(s) in rem = droit(s) réel(s): Compare the FR and EN versions of this official EU text: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:52...
It has several instances of this -- for instance, in Section 4.1: EN "Paragraph (j) stipulates that the Regulation applies to the acquisition of a right in rem relating to inherited property" = FR "Le paragraphe j) précise que le règlement s'applique à l'acquisition d'un droit réel portant sur un bien par voie successorale..."
A quick search for "in rem" on linguee.com will bring up many examples, some from official EU and UN sources, others from Canadian sources.