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Off topic: What is translation
Thread poster: Philippe Danjoux
Philippe Danjoux
Philippe Danjoux  Identity Verified
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Oct 16, 2020

I once studied philosophy and actually have a Master in Philosophy. I even studied for 2 years at a Ph.D. level but had to leave before I could finish my thesis. I was working on such topics as the philosophy of mind, philosophy and language, the AI model of the mind, psychoanalysis, and the like.

Working as a translator today, I still have some sort of philosophical ideas in mind when working. One of them would be: How could I best define the actual objective of the professional in
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I once studied philosophy and actually have a Master in Philosophy. I even studied for 2 years at a Ph.D. level but had to leave before I could finish my thesis. I was working on such topics as the philosophy of mind, philosophy and language, the AI model of the mind, psychoanalysis, and the like.

Working as a translator today, I still have some sort of philosophical ideas in mind when working. One of them would be: How could I best define the actual objective of the professional in the act of translating? Several lines of reasoning come to my mind, among which 2 stand out:

1) the translator's job is to put the reader in the target language in the same frame of mind as the reader in the original language. The problem with that is that it requires a knowledge of the reader's mind that goes far beyond what is actually open to knowledge. Also, the objective has to be rephrased to include the original author's objective, that is: the reader's frame of mind mentioned above is not so much the actual one, as the one that the author tries to create in sharing some thoughts, pieces of knowledge, practical information and the like.

2) another line of reasoning that is applicable to most of the texts I am dealing with as a professional translator is to create a text in the target language that has the same "truth values" as the one in the original language - that is, a formal or logical equivalence between a certain succession of propositions whose terms (the terminological content) is considered as already set or to be set (glossary), and the translation of the said succession of propositions. The problem with that is that the logical equivalence relies on a terminological table of equivalence between concepts (the glossary), that is between entities that do not pertain to syntactical logic, but to the semantical level of language.

I wonder what would be the simplest philosophical definition of the act of translating that would encompass all the different types of translation (literature, business, technical, political, and so on)? Is it even possible to work out such a definition and would such a general definition be of any practical use to the professional translator?

Is there anyone out there who wondered about what does it actually mean to "translate" a text from one language to another? Maybe I'm totally wrong and there is a simple way of defining translation.
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Emanuele Vacca
 
Samuel Murray
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@Philippe Oct 16, 2020

Philippe Danjoux wrote:
I wonder what would be the simplest philosophical definition of the act of translating that would encompass all the different types of translation...?


One of the main problems with making a definition is that it assumes that translators do just one thing. In reality, what the translator does depends firstly on whom the translation is for (and by "whom" I don't mean who the reader is or who the client is, but who the person(s) and/or ideology(ies) are that the translation is trying to satisfy). What strategies the translator takes, i.e. what he will actually do and what he will actually try to accomplish, depends firstly on this main question.

The answers to this question can be simple, but they are often more complex than they first appear. For example, you could say that the translation is for the client (the one who commissions the translator), and therefore the translator must do his best to determine what the client wants to accomplish with the translation, and then try to accomplish that. Or, you could say that the translation is for the target reader (i.e. the ones that we or the client or the author is hoping is going to be reading it), and therefore the translator must try to figure out what kind of response is the ideal response from the target reader, and then try to accomplish that.

Even if we determine that the translation is for one of these two persons, the translation is also often for one or more ideologies... but since I realise that "ideology" is an often misunderstood word, let me give one frequently occurring example: "posterity". The translation may be for posterity. In other words, the translator (or clients) may feel an obligation to guide future generations with regard to e.g. the correct way to write.

I wonder what would be the simplest philosophical definition of the act of translating that would encompass all the different types of translation (literature, business, technical, political, and so on)? Is it even possible to work out such a definition and would such a general definition be of any practical use to the professional translator?


By the way, I assume you want a definition of what translators do, and not just a definition of "translation". "Translating" is easy: it means creating a message in one language that is as similar as possible to a message in another language.

Do you want a definition that is as accurate as possible for inclusion in an encyclopedia, or a definition that is "of practical use for translators"? Do you want a simple definition or a complex one? Are you hoping to replace extensive translator training with just one all-encompassing definition? (-:

[Edited at 2020-10-16 11:44 GMT]


Emanuele Vacca
 
Philippe Danjoux
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Higher level definition Oct 16, 2020

What you are saying is that there is not a unique definition of the "act of translating", but that the very nature of the act is dependent upon something external - intentions from the customer, cultural environment (meaning everything that goes from social makeup of a person to ideologies, implicit knowledge, cultural idioms, ways of saying and the like). The reality of translation would be wholly extrinsic, without an intrinsic existence of its own. I don't think this position makes any justic... See more
What you are saying is that there is not a unique definition of the "act of translating", but that the very nature of the act is dependent upon something external - intentions from the customer, cultural environment (meaning everything that goes from social makeup of a person to ideologies, implicit knowledge, cultural idioms, ways of saying and the like). The reality of translation would be wholly extrinsic, without an intrinsic existence of its own. I don't think this position makes any justice to the activity in which I am engaged.

Sure, the professional activity of translation depends on the demands of the clients on a practical level, on other factors such as industrial idioms, ways of speaking, terminological idiosyncrasies. Even historical factors may come in. Or even the individual style of the translator.

But I think this does not rule out the relevance of a higher-level definition, according to me...
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Samuel Murray
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@Philippe, w.r.t. specific comments in your first post Oct 16, 2020

Philippe Danjoux wrote:
1) The translator's job is to put the reader in the target language in the same frame of mind as the reader in the original language.


This one comes closest, in my opinion. I would expand it only to "the translator's job is to put the target-language reader in the frame of mind that the person who commissions the translation wants the target-language reader to be in", because sometimes the client is hoping to achieve something else with the translation that he had hoped to achieve (or have achieved) with the original.

But of course, some professional translators believe that they have a moral obligation (to the text, to the language, to the target-language readers, to society, to their God, or to their conscience) that supersedes any wishes of the person who commissions the translation.

The problem with that is that it requires a knowledge of the reader's mind that goes far beyond what is actually open to knowledge.


It is not a problem. The translator always aims to do something. He can't guarantee that he will succeed. The translator will never succeed 100% in achieving what the definition holds him to, unless the definition allows him to fail (hence, "aim to" or "try to").

Also, the objective has to be rephrased to include the original author's objective...


The original author abandons his text as soon as he discloses it. As soon as the original author sends his message (publishes his text, etc.), he is no longer in control of how the message will be received (i.e. "understood") or what effect it will have on its recipients. The original author's objective may be interesting to know, but in business-to-business translation it is often not really relevant.

2) Another line of reasoning ... is to create a text in the target language that has the same "truth values" as the one in the original language.


Yes, this approach removes the societal aspects of the translation process. Many translators follow such an approach (of believe that they do). It is the simplest and most reliable approach. By "reliable" I mean not so much that the outcome intended by the translator is achieved, but that it can most easily be assured that an objective evaluator will give it a favourable assessment. Not always very useful, but certainly always very safe.

[Edited at 2020-10-16 12:04 GMT]


expressisverbis
Kang Seok Lee
 
Philippe Danjoux
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Translation and communication Oct 16, 2020

Thank you very much for your replies so far: straightforward and down-to-earth, very helpful. Thinking of it all, the extrinsic aspects of the act of translating come from the fact that translating is in some way an act of communication, but not "self-communication": one of the objectives of the translator is that it aims at "invisibility" so that the final reader would read the translation as if it was an original work - this is an "ideal", of course, but still.

So, the act of tran
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Thank you very much for your replies so far: straightforward and down-to-earth, very helpful. Thinking of it all, the extrinsic aspects of the act of translating come from the fact that translating is in some way an act of communication, but not "self-communication": one of the objectives of the translator is that it aims at "invisibility" so that the final reader would read the translation as if it was an original work - this is an "ideal", of course, but still.

So, the act of translating is the act of communicating the message of someone else. The translator is an intermediary whose existence is secondary to the main objective of the communication.
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Samuel Murray
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@Philippe III Oct 16, 2020

Added: sorry, I think it's important to mention translation in the definition of what a translator's job is (-: So, "the translator's job is to create a target text in the format requested by the client, which puts the target-language reader in the frame of mind that the client wants the target-language reader to be in".

(I also shortened the definition by using the word "client", although I suspect some people might want to distinguish between the person who originally requested t
... See more
Added: sorry, I think it's important to mention translation in the definition of what a translator's job is (-: So, "the translator's job is to create a target text in the format requested by the client, which puts the target-language reader in the frame of mind that the client wants the target-language reader to be in".

(I also shortened the definition by using the word "client", although I suspect some people might want to distinguish between the person who originally requested the translation, the person who instructs the translator, and the person who pays the translator.)

As for your third post:

Philippe Danjoux wrote:
One of the objectives of the translator is that it aims at "invisibility" so that the final reader would read the translation as if it was an original work...


This is something that is often mentioned in discussions about translation from an academic perspective, but I don't think we need to include it in the definition of what a translator's job is. It is not relevant to the translator's job whether the target-reader knows (or is able to tell) that the text he's consuming has been translated from some other message. The translation either accomplishes [most of] what the translator and the client is hoping for, or it doesn't. If the translation "reads like a translation", then it often fails more at achieving this goal, but whether the translation "reads like a translation" should not be part of the main assessment of success.

So, the act of translating is the act of communicating the message of someone else. The translator is an intermediary whose existence is secondary to the main objective of the communication.


I think your attempt that mentions "frame of mind" is much, much more useful (and accurate) than this one that goes on about "communicating a message".

The job of a translator is not to communicate but to craft a message that will be communicated.

[Edited at 2020-10-16 12:17 GMT]
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Philippe Danjoux
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Philosophical curiosity Oct 16, 2020

Samuel Murray wrote:

Do you want a definition that is as accurate as possible for inclusion in an encyclopedia, or a definition that is "of practical use for translators"? Do you want a simple definition or a complex one? Are you hoping to replace extensive translator training with just one all-encompassing definition? (-:

[Edited at 2020-10-16 11:44 GMT]


I am just a simple translator and would not dare acting up as a "theoretician" of translation or even as a "trainer", "expert" or "specialist" in translation. I want to go beyond the simple definition, beyond the practical definition, beyond the professional definition. I am enquiring into the nature of the "act of translating" as I once enquired into the nature of the "act of communication", or into the nature of the mind.

The activity of the translator has something to tell that is relevant to the nature of language, and even to the nature of the human mind and of human thinking. These are arguments that still interest me, without any professional agenda (hidden or not). I'm just curious and wanted to hear from others as well.


 
Matthias Brombach
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To translate simply means ... Oct 16, 2020

Philippe Danjoux wrote:
I wonder what would be the simplest philosophical definition of the act of translating that would encompass all the different types of translation (literature, business, technical, political, and so on)? Is it even possible to work out such a definition and would such a general definition be of any practical use to the professional translator


... to understand, what you read in the source language, and to express it in other words (of the target language). I emphasized the word understand, because I (at least me) do understand this as the key process, based on the knowledge you have about the content or concepts behind the words you read. All other processes, i.e. how to learn a language, to learn grammar and words / terms, your ability to act (more or less) free of errors in both of the involved languages etc., only contribute as tools to the overall process of then expressing the content in the other (preferably your own native) language.


Philippe Danjoux
Tina Vonhof (X)
expressisverbis
Philip Lees
Jocelyne Cuenin
 
Samuel Murray
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Off-topic? Oct 16, 2020

Hmm, who decided to mark this thread as "off-topic"? The subforum where this thread is posted is called "Translation Theory and Practice", and this thread is about the translation theory. Not practical enough? Or is "theory and practice" just a euphemism for "putting theory into practice"?

 
Nurettin Ceylan
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Translation is writing Oct 16, 2020

You have to be a good writer first in order to become a good translator.

Philippe Danjoux
P.L.F. Persio
 
Philippe Danjoux
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Personal enquiry Oct 16, 2020

Samuel Murray wrote:

Hmm, who decided to mark this thread as "off-topic"?


I did, because this is a personal questioning, a kind of reflection that runs parallel to a reflection about what brought me to working as a translator.


 
Christopher Schröder
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Not about language Oct 16, 2020

I’d say the whole concept of language is pretty irrelevant to translation.

A translator is simply a storyteller. You hear a story and pass on your version of it to a different audience. This may or may not contain misunderstandings and embellishments.

It makes no difference whether the two stories are in the same language or not.


Kaspars Melkis
expressisverbis
Philip Lees
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expressisverbis
expressisverbis
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In the sense of: Oct 16, 2020

Chris S wrote:

I’d say the whole concept of language is pretty irrelevant to translation.

A translator is simply a storyteller. You hear a story and pass on your version of it to a different audience. This may or may not contain misunderstandings and embellishments.

It makes no difference whether the two stories are in the same language or not.


Not a matter of languages (only), but making intelligible a culture? If I understand you right.


P.L.F. Persio
 
Philippe Danjoux
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Language or not Oct 16, 2020

I don't see how the concept of language can be excluded. I'm OK for the "storytelling", but there is still to be a distinction between a "good" and a "bad" storytelling because the two versions of the story should tell the same "thing", whatever the language, and the ultimate reference is the "original".

Also, what is a text without a language? I can't figure it out. I do agree that the issue is not that of a particular language, but there is some sort of basic intuition that there
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I don't see how the concept of language can be excluded. I'm OK for the "storytelling", but there is still to be a distinction between a "good" and a "bad" storytelling because the two versions of the story should tell the same "thing", whatever the language, and the ultimate reference is the "original".

Also, what is a text without a language? I can't figure it out. I do agree that the issue is not that of a particular language, but there is some sort of basic intuition that there exists some sort of "universal language" which makes it possible to find equivalences between all human languages for all that can be said or expressed by the human speaker/writer.

Besides, everything that the human mind can rationally grasp is transformed into something that can be expressed by words or signs - knowledge is borne by language (mathematics is a language of some sort).

This said, translation has to do with a particular area of language and I'm not sure whether the idea of "storytelling" would suffice to describe the job of the translator, although there is some degree of justification in using this idea.
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finnword1
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simple: Oct 17, 2020

You write the source text in another language, without adding or omitting anything, trying to maintain the style, if possible.

Philip Lees
 
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