| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Andrew Morris of the ProZ.com team is airing personal views on a variety of subjects (Staff: 'yes') Thread poster: Fiona Grace Peterson
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Sheila Wilson 
Spain
Local time: 18:05
Member (2007)
English
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| How different two forums can be! | Apr 25, 2019 |
I've been actively contributing for years to a translation forum that's run by Andrew. I don't ever remember there being any nasty conflict, although of course people take different viewpoints all the time.
The crazy thing is that many of the contributors to that forum pop up in discussions on these forums too, as most have a ProZ.com profile.
And the weirdest thing of all is that the other one is on "the dreaded Facebook", where so many forum exchanges are positively ... See more I've been actively contributing for years to a translation forum that's run by Andrew. I don't ever remember there being any nasty conflict, although of course people take different viewpoints all the time.
The crazy thing is that many of the contributors to that forum pop up in discussions on these forums too, as most have a ProZ.com profile.
And the weirdest thing of all is that the other one is on "the dreaded Facebook", where so many forum exchanges are positively vile, whereas ProZ.com has always been so strict about us abiding by their rules of professional etiquette. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | @Sheila - it may be the context, after all | Apr 25, 2019 |
Sheila,
Interesting observation about the FB group and the fora here.
I have been thinking: isn't is possible that the apparent differences in the way some of the discussions seem to be happening stem from the fact that the environment (the context) of those fora are very different?
I am not part of the FB group that have been brought up several times as the positive example in contrast with the perception of these fora here on ProZ.com, but I assume that whole FB thing (group... See more Sheila,
Interesting observation about the FB group and the fora here.
I have been thinking: isn't is possible that the apparent differences in the way some of the discussions seem to be happening stem from the fact that the environment (the context) of those fora are very different?
I am not part of the FB group that have been brought up several times as the positive example in contrast with the perception of these fora here on ProZ.com, but I assume that whole FB thing (group, page, whatever) is sort of a standalone arrangement specifically for discussion of topics, perhaps focusing more on the "soft skills" of the translation business.
At the same time, if we think about it, we cannot look at the ProZ fora as a standalone thing, we cannot decouple it from the rest of the site. And this is an important fact, because here, the overall context is a website that is a marketplace for freelancers to find clients, and vice versa. Most people are here to create and maintain a profile that would bring business (i.e. money, bread on the table) to them. If we look at other important parts of the site (directory, KudoZ, job list, various badges, translation contests, etc.) pretty much all of those present a competitive setting. Yes, there are some aspects of them that could be viewed as "help", but at the end of the day, when points are summed, badges are considered, client reviews are counted and all those influence one's chances of connecting with clients, it is a competitive situation.
The site has grown tremendously and gone through many changes over the years (I have been here for 19 years, participated in KudoZ, contests, served as a moderator, worked on site localization). The growth of the site resulted in changes in management and communication style, and some important changes in site functionality - some of which resulted in frustration for users/members who felt those changes had/has a negatively impact on their business. Frustration can build up over time, especially if issues are not resolved in a timely manner, or at all. I sadly have to acknowledge that the ability and/or willingness of site management to actually, actively listen to what users/members are saying, decreased over the years. It might be due to the fact that discussions are sometimes hijacked, and there are some people who seem to have triggers and keep talking about their hobbyhorse whenever there seem to be something related to that, coupled with the gap between the existence of site rules and their actual implementation.
So, what I am trying to say here is that it might not be realistic to expect that discussions in the two locations being mentioned would have the same kind of style when their context is so very different.
Andrew may be an excellent facilitator on the FB group, but I think there was a mistake on his (or ProZ.com's management's) part when he jumped into the fora without doing a bit more observing and research. Without the experience of participating in the fora, in KudoZ, and other aspects of the site, and assuming the same kind of atmosphere that he was coming from, he was unprepared for what he set out to do. I honestly feel sorry for him for what happened on his very first attempt, and I don't understand how his bosses did not reach out to help him (especially when things escalated) by providing a bit more background so that he would not take things that personally, and would not conclude (and state publicly, repeatedly), based on his raw perception of the events, that things are a living hell here (which again, did not sit well with the audience).
I am not comfortable with my own feeling that I have to keep wondering what really his role is - so far he became the punching bag for lots of built-up frustration -, and I think it is because the site management was not and is still not clear about what those "strategic changes" are that they are planning to "message" through Andrew. The unknown is fearful and frustrating for many, and I think this is one of the underlying problems, if not the main one.
Aaand, again, a mega-long post. Sorry...
[Edited at 2019-04-25 18:01 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | TonyTK
German to English
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Susan Madden wrote:
"My local store is a dump and all of your staff are smelly"
Sounds like the Aldi in Queens
| | | | Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 19:05
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
Andrew Morris wrote:
As for whether my role is going well, I've said it here before and I'll say it again. It is going extremely well on Facebook
[/quote]
I, for one, couldn't care less what you or anyone else does on Facebook. You're posting on ProZ now and your doings on FB or any other site are irrelevant. (This actually reminds me of holding auditions for guitarists who'd suck on stage but would then protest that they sounded like Jimi Hendrix when playing in their bedroom).
But here on the Forum, what if part of my role has is to shake things up a bit?
Perhaps you might make so bold as to explain to us exactly why there exists this pressing need to "shake things up"?
Yet I know that's not gonna happen, because
Without knowing my terms of reference, you are simply not in a position to judge whether it is a success or not. End of story.
Your plainly dismissive (You don't know what I'm doing, so are not in a position to judge....."End of story") attitude aside, what exactly is it that you're supposed to be doing? - please try to explain this without using words like "messaging" and suchlike. Much appreciated.
And while we're pronouncing success and failure, why not ask yourselves also whether the Forum itself, with all its "psychological currents", is an unmitigated triumph? ..... That doesn't exactly spell success to me.
So you won't tell us exactly what purpose you serve, but you do take the liberty to insinuate that those of us who take part in these forums are some kind of failure?
Dale Carnegie, you're not.
Finally, re the nomenclature debate, I am now slightly bored with it.
So, your failure to "message" properly, by not only lacking a cogent idea of how to connect with so many people on here, but not even anticipating the fact that nobody's quite clear what your role actually is "now bores you". (It's tempting to say "poor thing")
It would, again, be much appreciated were you to sort this out yourself, but again, we know that's not gonna happen, because
You know where to write to ProZ.com HQ. Take it up with them if you think it really occupies your thoughts so much...
"Bull In China Shop Blames Farmer"
[Edited at 2019-04-26 04:16 GMT]
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Ok, so I got it wrong. Badly wrong. It happens as you grow in professional life. The question is, what do we do with our mistakes? In this case, clearly I will try to learn from them, not justify or defend them.
I will try to be as honest and open as possible in what follows.
As Katalin suggests in her very reasonable comment, I came in without having done enough preparation, and somehow expected things to be a continuation of my work on other social media.
... See more Ok, so I got it wrong. Badly wrong. It happens as you grow in professional life. The question is, what do we do with our mistakes? In this case, clearly I will try to learn from them, not justify or defend them.
I will try to be as honest and open as possible in what follows.
As Katalin suggests in her very reasonable comment, I came in without having done enough preparation, and somehow expected things to be a continuation of my work on other social media.
Mistake.
I think it's fair to say my first post was innocent enough, announcing the existence of Facebook groups. In fact, three out of four posts were pretty anodyne in content. There was nothing that was controversial about them. I hope we can agree on that.
I was taken aback by what I perceived to be very negative responses from Day 1 (perhaps for reasons that long pre-date my arrival, as Katalin suggests) and things escalated from there.
Like most people, I am less good at handling negative responses than positive ones, and I reacted badly and over-sensitively, which added fuel to the flames. I am generally positive and optimistic, qualities which have served me well throughout my personal and professional life, but I am neither Dale Carnegie nor the Buddha: I let my ego rise to the surface far too easily, and it spiralled out of control.
I perceived some people, whom I had never met, as hostile from the outset and I responded in an aggressive and dismissive manner. Possibly I misunderstood their hostility to ProZ.com as hostility to me.
Perhaps that was your right, as users of the Forum, but it was not mine, as a representative of ProZ.com, as Susan points out, in another considered and diplomatic comment.
No doubt the nomenclature issue played a part, which I should also have anticipated better. I accept responsibility for that.
I apologise if my tone offended people. I was also wrong to make comments about the culture of the Forum without greater experience of its workings and understanding of its history – just as it would be wrong to make judgements about a new country without understanding its language or its past.
I will now reflect on this and in the meantime, get on with my work elsewhere within the ProZ.com ecosystem, which is going well.
When the time is right, I will return here, once things have been properly announced and prepared. And then I will try to explain my role in a way which is more palatable.
Please remember that while there are people who are extremely experienced within ProZ.com and its system, there are also many here who are just starting out. As a freelancer with a track record of working with many hundreds of clients, the vast majority of whom are direct clients, I just may have something to offer, not instead of, but alongside, your many contributions.
Until then, thanks for your comments and the learning they have brought me.
I sincerely hope there is nothing in this message which insinuates anything or appears insulting. I have tried to state facts which are easily verified and "owned" anything subjective by referring to my perceptions. I would appreciate a little time now to work on the issues and learn from them.
Andrew ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:05
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Andrew Morris wrote:
I will now reflect ....and in the meantime, get on with my work elsewhere within the ProZ.com ecosystem....
Excellent.
| | | | Jo Macdonald
Spain
Local time: 19:05
Italian to English
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| Don't look down now, but......... | Apr 26, 2019 |
Andrew, I for one would like to thank you because if it wasn't for your posts I would have missed Paul's great vid and you managed to give me the kick up the backside I needed to get back into promoting my business again after years of taking it for granted. Also getting me to join the Facebook group (something I considered until recently to have absolutely nothing to offer work-wise) was imo just as big an accomplishment as me taking my blind friend to the top of that mountain last weekend in h... See more Andrew, I for one would like to thank you because if it wasn't for your posts I would have missed Paul's great vid and you managed to give me the kick up the backside I needed to get back into promoting my business again after years of taking it for granted. Also getting me to join the Facebook group (something I considered until recently to have absolutely nothing to offer work-wise) was imo just as big an accomplishment as me taking my blind friend to the top of that mountain last weekend in his baptism of mountain climbing fire.
Sure you can look at that big, hard, rude wall of rock that certainly ain't your friend and walk away from it, or walk around it and take the easy way out, but if you know your limits, put yourself to the challenge, respect and know it for what it is and don't let go, looking back down feels just fine.
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| | | | | Thank you Andrew | Apr 26, 2019 |
Thank you for your post Andrew, I appreciate it.
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Andrew Morris wrote:
Ok, so I got it wrong. Badly wrong. It happens as you grow in professional life. The question is, what do we do with our mistakes? In this case, clearly I will try to learn from them, not justify or defend them.
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I will try to be as honest and open as possible in what follows.
....
I apologise if my tone offended people.
When the time is right, I will return here, once things have been properly announced and prepared.
Andrew
I really appreciate and agree with these sentences, Andrew.
| | | | | Simply a storm in the water glass? | Apr 26, 2019 |
Andrew Morris wrote:
I perceived some people, whom I had never met, as hostile from the outset and I responded in an aggressive and dismissive manner. Possibly I misunderstood their hostility to ProZ.com as hostility to me.
.....
I was also wrong to make comments about the culture of the Forum without greater experience of its workings and understanding of its history – just as it would be wrong to make judgements about a new country without understanding its language or its past.
etc
Andrew, no matter in what forum I ever participated: Aggressiveness, brazeness and other forms of unpleasant expressions and attitudes have always been very quick at hand. Maybe also because of my contributions, yes, but it seems to be a general phenomenon. This seems to be due to the fact that written communication is more prone to let fall your usual good manner you may show in direct communication face to face or on the phone. You may wonder how agreeable (or silent ...) some of the worst online heroes can be when you meet them in person.
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Matthias Brombach wrote:
Andrew, no matter in what forum I ever participated: Aggressiveness, brazeness and other forms of unpleasant expressions and attitudes have always been very quick at hand. Maybe also because of my contributions, yes, but it seems to be a general phenomenon. This seems to be due to the fact that written communication is more prone to let fall your usual good manner you may show in direct communication face to face or on the phone. You may wonder how agreeable (or silent ...) some of the worst online heroes can be when you meet them in person.
There's loads of grumpy people here, myself included... 
| | | | | Reality checks | Apr 26, 2019 |
Matthias Brombach wrote:
You may wonder how agreeable (or silent ...) some of the worst online heroes can be when you meet them in person.
And vice versa. I've heard that Sheila can be pretty handy with her fists after a few sherries
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Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 13:05
Spanish to English
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| Thanks but no thanks | Apr 26, 2019 |
I appreciate Andrew’s apology, but I also have to say that I think that the idea of proz.com embedding a paid staff member within the forums for the purpose of steering conversations in a particular desired direction is itself fundamentally flawed, and really ought to be abandoned forthwith.
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Robert Forstag wrote:
I appreciate Andrew’s apology, but I also have to say that I think that the idea of proz.com embedding a paid staff member within the forums for the purpose of steering conversations in a particular desired direction is itself fundamentally flawed, and really ought to be abandoned forthwith.
I couldn't agree more.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 18:05
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Chris S wrote: I've heard that Sheila can be pretty handy with her fists after a few sherries
 You've got it completely wrong, Chris. I'm no "dainty sherry sipper". You owe me several craft beers for that cheeky comment .
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Andrew Morris of the ProZ.com team is airing personal views on a variety of subjects (Staff: 'yes') | Protemos translation business management system | Create your account in minutes, and start working! 3-month trial for agencies, and free for freelancers!
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