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Marketing without sharing space with low bidders and job posters
Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:01
English to German
+ ...
Mar 9, 2020

After many years, I am at the point where I am no longer interested in staying at sites where I share my marketing space with low bidders and low-rate job posters. And there are quite a few such sites.

I am interested in marketing myself on a site for translators that does not permit job postings but only profiles of translators who have been vetted as professional people, i.e. pursue this as a career. Maybe have done so for at least a few years.

I am simply appalled by
... See more
After many years, I am at the point where I am no longer interested in staying at sites where I share my marketing space with low bidders and low-rate job posters. And there are quite a few such sites.

I am interested in marketing myself on a site for translators that does not permit job postings but only profiles of translators who have been vetted as professional people, i.e. pursue this as a career. Maybe have done so for at least a few years.

I am simply appalled by the way posters keep demanding what they want and obviously keep getting for cheap money on job bidding sites. I suspect the never-ending stream of newbies is to blame. But I don't really care about that anymore. What counts for me is not to be associated with these practices and, to me, it sure seems that way, especially if I am a paying customer supporting such a site.

If a non-job-posting site for professional translators already exists (publicly accessible), feel free to email me.

Are there others out there that feel the same?

Thank you.
B

[Edited at 2020-03-09 22:54 GMT]
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Kartik Isaac
Magnus Rubensson
 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:01
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Kind of Mar 9, 2020

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

Are there others out there that feel the same?



Kind of, but I don't know of any sites like that. Who would vet the translators to make sure they really are good?

Maybe some of us should set up that site ourselves.


Kartik Isaac
 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 11:01
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Isn't that exactly what the translators' associations provide? Mar 9, 2020

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I am interested in marketing myself on a site for translators that does not permit job postings but only profiles of translators who have been vetted as professional people

ATA
CIOL
SFT
etc.


Martina Klett
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Kay Denney
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Marissa Aguayo Gavilano
Vera Schoen
María Paula Gorgone
 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:01
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
One idea, yes Mar 9, 2020

Tom in London wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

Are there others out there that feel the same?



Kind of, but I don't know of any sites like that. Who would vet the translators to make sure they really are good?

Maybe some of us should set up that site ourselves.


Yes, I agree. Some translators could start it.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:01
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Something new Mar 9, 2020

Sheila Wilson wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I am interested in marketing myself on a site for translators that does not permit job postings but only profiles of translators who have been vetted as professional people

ATA
CIOL
SFT
etc.


I am looking for something new that really gets the idea across what a good translator is, a site that is truly dedicated to us, the people who translate. And no ridiculous fees and certifications etc. please.
It would take a bit of thinking on how to go about this.


Katalin Szilárd
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
Kartik Isaac
ahartje
María Paula Gorgone
Magnus Rubensson
 
DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
Association fallacy Mar 10, 2020

Bernhard, and who is more interested in your success than you are? Diversification is a must! Obviously, you made a right choice marketing yourself (personal branding) on a private site as a family biz. However, skimming the Services tab, I couldn’t find the specifics like a price range or other services but translation. IMO it’s a bit wordy and not that simple for an end client who just wants his job done (1) properly, (2) timely, and (3) as agreed.
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Bernhard, and who is more interested in your success than you are? Diversification is a must! Obviously, you made a right choice marketing yourself (personal branding) on a private site as a family biz. However, skimming the Services tab, I couldn’t find the specifics like a price range or other services but translation. IMO it’s a bit wordy and not that simple for an end client who just wants his job done (1) properly, (2) timely, and (3) as agreed.

As for your ‘verified ZorP’ idea: Who is eligible to vet others? How to vet, any standards? What criteria and sanctions? How often? How detailed? What guarantees? Why a highly qualified specialist (or even an evaluation panel) should vet/maintain such a platform pro bono? Not to mention how come such a great idea has not been implemented yet...


1) The people tend to find patterns and associations, so the very notion of “translator” implies a ‘pure’ translator as a disposable [one-time] linguist-theorist without practical and business skills.
2) While fair businesspersons respect their equals with good name and those who are better at something worthy—even rivals, most perpetrators and spongers merely fatten at the others’ expense.
3) Thus, separating deemed professionals from needy and learning bottom-feeders is but wasting time and efforts, because wheat and chaffs are initially one and keep growing.

Just mind your business and let them decide it for themselves
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Brian Joyce
 
The Misha
The Misha
Local time: 07:01
Russian to English
+ ...
In the (not so) good old times... Mar 10, 2020

... I would have suggested you join the Party and have your local commissar or special troika vet everyone as "professional" and "trustworthy". But seeing how these are different times indeed, I am afraid your are out of luck. That hateful, "never-ending stream of newbies" that "is to blame" is nothing but a natural generational turnover in this business, as in any other, under normal market conditions and trying to artificially limit access or set additional requirements (in the absence of spec... See more
... I would have suggested you join the Party and have your local commissar or special troika vet everyone as "professional" and "trustworthy". But seeing how these are different times indeed, I am afraid your are out of luck. That hateful, "never-ending stream of newbies" that "is to blame" is nothing but a natural generational turnover in this business, as in any other, under normal market conditions and trying to artificially limit access or set additional requirements (in the absence of specific laws in effect that say you can) may be borderline illegal in such places as the United States.

Now, how is that for a way "not to be associated with these practices"? Don't be! Do not rely on the electronic equivalent of a Sunday flea market for your business. Develop it privately, as most of us who have been around long enough do - through good old schmoozing and a network of personal referrals based on merit, i.e. hard professional skills and reputation.

Or you can continue drinking the Kool-Aid and keep searching for those mythical worlds where everyone is professional, conscientious, properly vetted and totally comme il faut. Good luck with that.
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Sheila Wilson
Darius Sciuka
Jorge Payan
Andrea Capuselli
 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:01
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Illegal Mar 10, 2020

The Misha wrote:

.....may be borderline illegal in such places as the United States.


I understand everything is illegal in the United States.


Harvetta Asamoah
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
Robert Rietvelt
Robert Rietvelt  Identity Verified
Local time: 12:01
Member (2006)
Spanish to Dutch
+ ...
@Sheila Mar 10, 2020

Sheila Wilson wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I am interested in marketing myself on a site for translators that does not permit job postings but only profiles of translators who have been vetted as professional people

ATA
CIOL
SFT
etc.


In Holland it is the NGTV. They advice prices starting with 0.23 - 0.25 euro per word and up. I would love to charge those prices, but the result (in my case) would be that I am out of a job. Nobody will pay me that amount.

Unfortunately, that is the reality.

[Edited at 2020-03-10 11:04 GMT]


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:01
Member (2008)
Italian to English
NGTV Mar 10, 2020

https://ngtv.nl/en/about-ngtv/

 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 11:01
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
It sounds as though the NGTV is massively out of touch Mar 10, 2020

Robert Rietvelt wrote:
In Holland it is the NGTV. They advice prices starting with 0.23 - 0.25 euro per word and up. I would love to charge those prices, but the result (in my case) would be that I am out of a job. Nobody will pay me that amount.

That's bizarre and totally unhelpful! It sounds as though they're stuck in the "paper age" when translators had to spend a fortune on ink, writing paper, envelopes and stamps just to contact clients, then they had to buy a stack of reference books and/or spend hours at the local library researching a few terms, then pay to post everything off by registered post. I know we're paid less nowadays per word, and to some extent that must be frustrating for per-internet professionals, but it doesn't necessarily mean we're worse off at all. We can find clients more easily and work so much faster nowadays if we take advantage of all the technology -- more than I can manage to do at my age. We should have no need to earn so much per word in order to earn a good living, as it's the per-hour equivalent that really matters. It's quite understandable (to me, anyway) that the per-word rate has dropped. Only a portion of the market is involved with the race-to-the-bottom, peanut-paying rates that Bernhard doesn't seem to be able to disassociate himself from. And that market is one that simply didn't exist pre-internet.


Dan Lucas
Vera Schoen
Robin LEPLUMEY
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 11:01
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
No ridiculous certifications? Mar 10, 2020

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I am looking for something new that really gets the idea across what a good translator is, a site that is truly dedicated to us, the people who translate. And no ridiculous fees and certifications etc.

I can understand that you don't want to accept "ridiculous fees". I wouldn't want to do that, either. It's why I'm totally clear about what I am prepared to accept. Not that mine are very high, but that's a personal decision based on many things. I honestly don't accept less than stated here on my profile unless there's a very good reason (which is quite rare). And yet I still get loads of work here, where I'm supposedly "sharing space with low bidders and job posters". I acknowledge they're here, but I haven't shared much at all with them in the last 13 years.

What is your problem with certifications? Do you think they're bad? Wherever you set up this stall, how do you propose to ensure that every translator there is worth a high rate, rather than just scamming clients? How will you define "good"? It seems to me that certification is a great way. I didn't go that route so have to rely on reputation, but I'd love to join my husband and my daughter in having some letters after my name. It must be useful for both parties.


Vi Pukite
Andrea Capuselli
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 12:01
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Official and unofficial rates Mar 10, 2020

Robert Rietvelt wrote:
In Holland it is the NGTV. They advise prices starting with 0.23 - 0.25 euro per word and up.


This must be an unofficial advisement. Officially, they say:
The Competition Act prohibits the making of collective price agreements. Every translator ... determines his or her own rates, for example based on the desired delivery time, the level of difficulty, etc. Rates or remuneration guidelines for ... translation services do not exist; ... translators determine this themselves in consultation with their clients, which is called market forces.
https://ngtv.nl/nl/faq/tolk-of-vertaler-zoeken/tarieven-tolk-of-vertaler/ (Google Translate'd)

To become an NGTV member, you need 2 years' full-time experience as a translator. Membership costs EUR 250 per year. Clients can search for translators by language combination, native language, specialism and distance, and translators are shown in a list with randomized positions. For example, a search for English-to-Dutch translators gets me 250 results.


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:01
Member (2008)
Italian to English
NGTV Mar 10, 2020

To me, the NGTV rates look like what I SHOULD be earning.

We need to raise awareness of the importance of the translator. Without us, nobody would be able to do any kind of business internationally. We are a key link in the supply chain and we're worth a LOT.


Sarah McDowell
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:01
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Clarification Mar 10, 2020

Sheila Wilson wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I am looking for something new that really gets the idea across what a good translator is, a site that is truly dedicated to us, the people who translate. And no ridiculous fees and certifications etc.



Hi Sheila,
By "fees" above I meant fees charged by platforms or associations.

Sheila Wilson wrote:
.... I honestly don't accept less than stated here on my profile unless there's a very good reason (which is quite rare). And yet I still get loads of work here, where I'm supposedly "sharing space with low bidders and job posters". I acknowledge they're here, but I haven't shared much at all with them in the last 13 years.


It's not my experience that I get loads of work here (you mean here at this platform, right?). I can't say I don't get contacted by prospective clients. I do. I also have many visitors to my profile. But my actual business is mainly based on contacts I have established throughout the years, a few through here (never many) and many directly through my own website. I do share space here with people using the job board. And that's just a fact. It's something that doesn't work for me any longer because I feel it is detrimental to my own efforts here. It's as if you were trying to put up a professional business in a building with various businesses, but in the back room, accessible through the back door, there is something not so professional going on, being in direct competition with you. Actually, I have the feeling that this other business is placed much more prominently than my own.
I tried not to let it bother me, but the more outrageous certain business practices have become, the more I have realized this is really not the right thing for me. By acquiescing to these practices going on where I also advertise, I feel I support them. Paying a membership fee implies that support even more. From my point of view.
So I am looking for other avenues that will actually have no job posters.

Sheila Wilson wrote:
What is your problem with certifications? Do you think they're bad? Wherever you set up this stall, how do you propose to ensure that every translator there is worth a high rate, rather than just scamming clients? How will you define "good"? It seems to me that certification is a great way. I didn't go that route so have to rely on reputation, but I'd love to join my husband and my daughter in having some letters after my name. It must be useful for both parties.


Not keen on certifications. Often subjective or often just a way to charge recurring fees. Here are a few ideas. I would like a platform for translators without job posters. A site where people are registered who have had some experience in the business, can provide references, have had some tertiary education (preferably, but not required) etc. As far as vetting is concerned, identities should be verified. Also, feedback from clients will be important.
Most importantly, I would make sure that there are clear statements about what these translators provide (quality service), what the job of a translator is (a highly sophisticated craft) and that quality translations are the only service provided. It should be made clear that professional services are provided at professional prices (a quoting system will be used where every translator is able to quote his/her prices). That does not mean unduly high prices. Just fair prices for what is provided. This should be a professional environment, not a gathering place for anyone who "thinks" they can be a translator. My view.

[Edited at 2020-03-10 13:14 GMT]


 
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